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Comment by mrmuagi | Hacker News Reader

>* Giving criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously.

I don't see how this is any different than the bog standard "encryption lets criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously.". Should money/txns be fundamentally track-able/examinable/un-encrypted but your private data/messages not?

Surely this contention is something you also consider -- care to expand?

>* Convincing older and gullible people to give their money to someone they don't know and a technology they can't explain

I am surprised. My initial viewpoint was why would scammers bother to fish for bitcoin when bank transfers/gift cards are a lower barrier -- but seems you are right [1], the cat and mouse chase continues...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kitboga+bitcoin

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> I don't see how this is any different than the bog standard "encryption lets criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously."

The obvious difference is that encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications.

>encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications

So does crypto but likewise opponents of encryption disregard the positives and focus on the negatives to align with their preformed ideas. The only way out of this trap is to have an open mind and internalize the fact that all technologies can be used for good and evil and thus are relatively neutral overall. Humanity must take the good and bad and see where the path goes in order to advance as a species.

>> encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications

> So does crypto [...]

I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one.

These systems are self referential. Great if all to do is speculate with value changes inside the system.

Other use cases? In short: no one has come up with any solution to the oracle problem.

As soon as you want to exchange anything crypto with anything but crypto (e.g. USD or a physical asset like a loaf of bread) you need trust.[1]

[1] https://youtu.be/MiLnDe_bX6Y

I don't have much invested in crypto, and I find PoW hideous. I think crypto is most useful for illegal things and tradecraft, but illegal doesn't mean immoral, and useful to criminals is still useful.

* Buying VPN relays anonymously, for connecting to through Tor, VPSes etc.

* Buying drugs.

* Donating to causes sanctioned by your country.

* Paying informants.

* Allowing you to prove you're the author of something, or knew a secret, later on.

* "Dead hand" schemes which release information if your wallet activity stops for more than a couple weeks. This keeps people from killing you to keep something from getting out.

* Online gambling.

* Evading financial controls to send money to your family abroad.

Some of this doesn't require any trust (e.g. proving you knew something before some date), most of the rest requires trust, but what makes crypto useful for these cases isn't lack of trust but auditability, anonymity and/or lack of control by authorities.

I have worked in (used personally or done professionally) pre-crypto versions of these, excluding the dead hand scheme- and although some were a little complex and had some risk, I would argue that the new version has the same complexity and risk, only it seems to be hidden by crypto buzz-words. Also reminds me why I don't do those things any more.

Indeed. I've come across a dead letter application that has been around for ages and I'm pretty sure it doesn't use crypto.

Honestly, using crypto for something like seems a bit nuts, like using a jackhammer to destroy a cardboard box.

None of these require crypto. This is a fallacy.

Which is closely tied to the fallacy that using crypto(currencies) gives you anonymity.

Cash gives you better anonymity than any crypto currency currently in wide circulation for the applications you listed.

> I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one.

They are currencies. I've gotten paid for services in XMR.

That doesn't mean anything. You could have been paid in potatoes for those exact same services - doesn't make potatoes a currency.

>> So does crypto [...]

> I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one.

Alibaba ran a Foreign Exchange service on top of crypto. I don't know if it is still running or not. It functioned like Western Union. Customers sent local currency to Alibaba, Alibaba bought crypto with that local currency and in another country sold that crypto for foreign currency and then deposited it into the foreign currency account.

The crypto part adds nothing to this process. There are already very efficient systems for exchanging one fiat currency for another without going through crypto.

The crypto part obviates the need for using international wire transfers and the powerful correspondent banks that make it possible.

Alibaba could already avoid that need for individual transactions by just holding balances in the different currencies, like e.g. Wise and many other retail forex providers do. They only need to deal with correspondent banks for balancing out those accounts in case more money flows in one direction than the other, and those transactions are large so the costs are not as much of a concern.

In any case, your argument presumes some desire to get rid of the correspondent banks. Most people don't have that desire, they just want the money to go from A-B reasonably cheaply, and there are existing great solutions for that except at the fringes — like criminals, avoiding sanctions, avoiding capital controls, etc — which is why crypto stays on those fringes.

>>Most people don't have that desire, they just want the money to go from A-B reasonably cheaply, and there are existing great solutions for that except at the fringes

Yes, it is for the fringes. One day Alibaba could find itself on the fringes, as collateral damage in some geopolitical dispute that locks it out of the centralized global financial system, as a result of which country it is based in.

I have no idea if this concern motivated Alibaba's reliance on crypto though.

Alibaba is under more threat from its own government than any outside force

Could an alternate means of settlement be used? Runescape gold or hawala?

Potentially the involvement of those banks is a feature and provides value?

Things to ponder...

Those alternate means are not very durable.

Gold isn't durable? It will still be valuable long after crypto currencies are a footnote in history.

I didn't realize you suggested gold. I thought you meant "runescape gold". Yes gold is durable.

I suspect cryptocurrency will be a store of value far further into the future than gold. Gold becomes plentiful once extracting resources from asteroids becomes economically viable.

https://www.parity.io/blog/un-world-food-programme-uses-pari...

The UN saved more than 40,000 USD per month in bank transfer costs by using blockchain.

This article is basically an ad for Parity, and doesn't contain any details on how those savings were actually achieved, any way to verify that the number is genuine, or any way to know whether the same savings could have been achieved with improved processes with or without blockchain (which is very likely).

So, they replicated Western Union only less efficiently?

As a consumer, I don't mind if they are less efficient. Just as long as they are the cheapest option.

> So does crypto

It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example.

* Evacuating money from war or authocratic leadership in a brain wallet, without running into the risk of getting it stolen at checkpoints. Of course that works best for those who already have crypto before that door closes.

* Paying for VPN anonymously with Monero.

* Sending money for living to relatives that reside in countries that are sanctioned. What's more important? Knowing that your family is not hungry or following your government's doctrine?

* Hide money from abusive relatives.

In summary: Doing transactions without having to ask your principal for permission or having to reveal them. Seems quite empowering to me, but apparently not everyone thinks that being empowered is valuable.

In a democratic society, with an elected principal, it's not only not valuable, but anti-democratic and antisocial.

We all agreed on the rules as a society, if somebody wants to empower themselves above them than that's not cool imo.

Of course, in authoritarian governments your point stands, but then the trade-off is undermining democracies as collateral damage.

All my examples are defensive. Defending the freedoms that are guaranteed by the underlying social contracts (but commonly ignored by those in power, even in the most democratic societies that exist) is not antisocial at all. Unlike violence, crypto specifically is not empowerment above others, but personal empowerment for everyone. Everyone can be empowered at the same time.

> We all agreed on the rules as a society

Actually we didn't. None of us chose to be here. None of us has a choice over when or where we're born. We all arrive and grow up in societies structured and governed in ways that we've had no say over, and over which very few of us will have meaningful influence during our lifetimes. Some of this is OK, some of it isn't. Some places are more or less OK than others. But don't act like we should all simply accept everything about systems we've had no agency in building purely because we might live in a democracy.

I've moved countries four times in my life. You might not have chosen to be here, but others have. Speak for yourself.

But did you do so in order to enjoy different political systems, or more because of unrelated things like work, family, studies, ..., while the political system was something that just was in place and acceptable enough for you? I think that is what GP is aiming at.

What if you cannot find an existing system that is open for you and acceptable enough?

> to enjoy different political systems, or more because of unrelated things like work, family, studies

Ah, pretending that "work, family, studies" don't depend on political systems is peak HN.

> What if you cannot find an existing system that is open for you and acceptable enough?

Life is a series of compromises

> "work, family, studies" don't depend on political systems

Not strictly. Especially not if you switch four times.

> Life is a series of compromises

Of course it is. That's why living in a democracy and fiat system while also using crypto is totally fine.

> Not strictly. Especially not if you switch four times.

It's splitting hairs now. Your original claim was, and I quote, "did you do so in order to enjoy different political systems, or more because of unrelated things like work, family, studies"

- Work is a spectrum between "you're forced to work at the collective farm and you don't even have documents to travel anywhere" (e.g., USSR, until about 1960s) and "move to whatever place you want and start your own company" (most of the modern world).

- Family is a spectrum between "divorce is fully forbidden, punishable, or fined" (most countries with heavy religious influences, even today) to "you're free people, do what you want". And not to mention things like child care and support, rigths of husbands and wives, rights of children etc. etc. etc.

- Studies is a spectrum between "women and/or non-believers and/or non-priviledged classes have no access to education" (really most countries until modern times, some countries even now) to "yeah, go ahead and study whatever you want" (most of the modern world).

And so on. To pretend that major things in life are not affected by politics is disingenuous at best. There's literally, right now, a huge ongoing debate in the US about healthcare (affects family) and student debt (affects studies).

I don't disagree with any of that and you are right with that it is not "unrelated" as I worded it, but my initial point was that moving is not necessarily motivated by political preferences.

Many people move, because they are following opportunities (and of course these are also affected by politics). Some people move from A to B and back to A. Sometimes from democracies to dictatorships. It does not automatically mean that they do so, because they prefer one or the other system. Some people accept a political downgrade when they move.

> moving is not necessarily motivated by political preferences.

"I'm moving to A because my kids can go to school there without incurring heavy debt" is influenced by politics even if it's not explicitly acknowledged. Or even if the person doesn't think it's influenced by politics.

> Some people accept a political downgrade when they move.

Yes, they do. Because the reasons may be [1] "I don't want my kids to be subjected to gay propaganda, I'm going back to the country that upholds traditional values", and this is again is influenced by politics even if it's not explicitly stated and the person doesn't understand that.

[1] I know of some people who moved back to Russia for this stated reason.

> I know of some people who moved back to Russia for this stated reason

Horrible

Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. Your on the clock..

>> It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example.

> Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria.

That is not a credible example. Here are some reasons:

1) Paying for porn? Paying for porn when the implication is that it's illegal and could get you in trouble? Who would do that?

2) Cryptocurrency isn't anonymous, and is usually highly traceable.

3) And even if it was anonymous, what good will it do when your DNS lookups will divulge you're looking at gay porn?

4) Oh, so now someone's supposed to be using some elaborate TOR/VPN setup in a repressive country, just so they can pay for porn?

5) What, exactly is the process for converting Syrian Pounds into cryptocurrency again?

6) etc.

> Your on the clock..

Why were you so confident in your non-credible example?

The other poster is probably very confident because gay.com redirects to https://lalgbtcenter.org, which is an LGBT advocacy group in Los Angeles.

>>> Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria.

>> Why were you so confident in your non-credible example?

> The other poster is probably very confident because gay.com redirects to https://lalgbtcenter.org, which is an LGBT advocacy group in Los Angeles.

I doubt they knew that. It's inconsistent with their thought of "buying a subscription to gay.com," and it raises the question of why someone in Syria would even be interested in a LA-focused advocacy group. Plus in their reply indicated they thought of it as a porn site. What kind of advocacy group has a paywall that someone would want to see behind?

You need to spend more time thinking about this. You’ll end up realising that the value lies in self sovereign, permissionless money. Tech like Monero. The debt ceiling grows every day.

> You need to spend more time thinking about this. You’ll end up realising that the value lies in self sovereign, permissionless money. Tech like Monero.

I have. However you illustrate an important point about cryptocurrency: it's an exercise in political ideology without practicality.

> The debt ceiling grows every day.

If you're that worried about inflation, shiny gold seems like a better option.

Shiny gold also has the benefit of being something you can stuff in a sock and hit clobber cryptobros with ;-)

Try that trick with some digital currency :-)

Who would pay for porn? Someone who wants to see what's behind that paywall.

Crytocurrency is difficult and costly to trace and exchange identifying not available to Syria.

VPNs would be used

Same process for other currencies on Binance and other exchanges.

The addition of cryptocurrency to the process adds no value (and in this case adds unnecessary risk). You might as well suggest using cryptocurrency to buy a Big Mac at McDonalds. Here's how you do it:

1. Deposit your money in a bank. Wire it to Binance. Buy Bitcoin.

2. Go to a McDonald's.

3. Hire a gig worker through an app, pay them in cryptocurrency to buy a Big Mac with fiat and give it to you.

4. Eat your $55 Big Mac, and wonder at the amazing real-world utility of cryptocurrency.

Or order a pizza with cryto to a vacant property.

If the person has VPN access them there are better options available. The crypto transaction makes information available to attackers that wouldn't be available by any other method.

That's objectively worse.

When did Binance start to accept the Syrian Pound? This is just the usual hand-waving that ignores all the inconvenient details.

You might be surprised:

https://www.fxempire.com/crypto/exchange/binance/review

I'm confused by your link. Nowhere on that page does it mention them accepting the Syrian Pound...?

I'm not particularly anti-crypto but this is probably the worst example ever.

By using crypto the person now has written a public record of that payment. An attacker now can use correlation attacks to try to identify the user.

It's worse in almost every way for that user.

I'm still stuck at the part where we're paying for porn...

You’ll understand when you’re older.

I'm fairly old already, and so far age is... not linearly correlated, but at least definitely a dampening function on porn consumption :)

Haha, ok well you got me there. :) when i get right down to it, I've only paid for my porn out of a sense of patronage, not necessity. Shame about that dampening factor, but its also allowed me to appreciate more niche and interesting erotica, akin to adults who can eat interesting food dishes compared to kids who prefer hamburgers and macaroni.

I assumed it was a dating site?

Worse than a credit card? How?

Public record that Syria cannot easily track with bitcoin or no trail with Monero.

I'll give you a bitcoin wallet address can you tell me who owns it?

> I'll give you a bitcoin wallet address can you tell me who owns it?

It depends on the address. But assuming the person is using the same address for multiple transactions then the attacker only has to be able to correlate one address with a person (or a person's device if they have access to it).

This could be a completely innocuous transaction, including something as seemingly innocent as signing into a Dapp.

Compare that to a non-blockchain transaction, where if the attacker hacked an random ecommerce site (say a supermarket) that doesn't automatically allow them to tie all records to transactions on the site that is a problem.

> Worse than a credit card? How?

If I buy something at my supermarket with my credit card, even with home delivery AND even if the supermarket kept the credit card number there is nothing tying that transaction to gay.com.

- not having a central payment processor know everything about you

- buying drugs/porn/VPNs/etc in a country that has a backwards stance on them

- anonymous donations

- purchasing services (eg commissioned art) without revealing your identity

- sending money to friends and family during hyperinflation/freedom from government (mis)management of currencies

Freedom of speech (eg cryptography) is not worth much without the ability to actually use said freedom to drive a change (e.g. requiring work, thus requiring money.)

So…

- Not having anyone watch out for you

- Buying slaves/child porn/weapons in countries with a “backwards stance” on them

- You don’t need crypto for that. A lawyer could do it for you.

- See above

- Use any other currency that’s not undergoing hyper inflation

Seems like you can use the same arguments for encryption.

- Not having anyone "watch out" for your communications

- the ability to pirate or download content illegally

- can have a lawyer handle secure communications

- just use a different messaging service

Clearly we value the freedom and privacy provided by encryption to ignore these arguments.

I believe in string encryption. The difference is usefulness. I’ve seen others express this in this post’s comments.

Encryption is EXTREMELY useful, as history has proved. It has a great many beneficial uses, or at least benign. Yes it can be used by criminals, but that’s hardly its only use.

Cryptocurrency doesn’t seem to provide anything but something to speculate on, a way to sell hardware, and an unfathomable waste of resources. When people point out things it’s “better” at they always seem kind of sketchy, of require you to old the same values (independence from central government above all else). I see no inherent good after 14 years, just massive problems.

So no, I don’t think they’re comparable myself. I don’t find them similar at all for the purposes of the point I’m trying to make.

You don't find crypto useful or worthwhile because you're privileged enough to:

- Be banked;

- Live in a country with a somewhat stable currency, in which exchanging to another currency is legal;

- Live under a regime that does not impose authoritarian censorship on whom you can exchange value with;

- Use payment processors that only abuse your privacy when you aren't looking.

These conditions are not the case for everyone, everywhere. Is it so difficult for you to imagine that:

- Crypto, once matured, could enable the ~2 billion people that are unbanked to own their own money?

- Someone living in a country with a hyperinflationary currency, that bans currency conversions and precious metals, would like to use crypto to preserve their life's savings?

- Someone might want to donate to an entity opposing an authoritarian, human-rights abusing government, without painting a target on their back? (And no, we both know lawyers are not viable for this.)

Throughout human history, there has not been a single government that has not egregiously failed its people or abused/destroyed the wealth of its citizens.

You seem to think that we have arrived at some special time where this will never happen again. That is not the case. Encryption protects your speech, and cryptocurrency protects your wealth, from governments that will inevitably fail you as surely as the sun will rise.

Crypto has tons of awesome use cases. Here's a list of 77 use cases.

https://blog.chain.link/44-ways-to-enhance-your-smart-contra...

> . My initial viewpoint was why would scammers bother to fish for bitcoin when bank transfers/gift cards are a lower barrier

Because bank transfers at least are inherently traceable. It just requires a sufficiently motivated government agency or prosecutor to go after them. On Gift cards, there's a lot publicity regarding scams and stores are increasingly flagging scams.

Crypto for now at least is far safer from a scmer POV as it requires far higher level of investment and expertise to trace and unmask, so only the ultra big fish seem to get chased

The difference is crypto(graphy) is "old" and established, while crypto(currencies) and blockchain are new and trendy. It's like what happened with the JS frameworks, which have stabilized now a bit. Everyone wanted to create a new amazing project, everyone was lured into using X or Y framework because Z. But not many know a lot about them. Same with crypto, people see it's trendy and go in even if they lack all the technical knowledge around it. Thus, scams and hacks are everywhere.

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