That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.
Western systems vary a lot in their degree of specialisation too. By 16, after the GCSEs the UK is done with being a generalist. Pick 3 or 4 A-Levels of your choice and if you feel like doing Math, Further Math and Physics or three sciences and Maths no one will stop you in the name of "well roundedness".
https://uh.edu/undergraduate-admissions/apply/freshman/fresh... https://www.missouristate.edu/Policy/Op5_01_3_FreshmanAdmiss...
Actually here's a list of a bunch more: https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/10-best-colleges-wit...
These hand-wringing conversations about fair admissions mostly apply only to the elite top X schools. Those places receive tons of applications from academically top-tier students. The are looking for "something else" to make you stand out from the crowd.
Thats why simple systems like a lottery for everyone that's qualified aren't adopted. And the people trying to get in dont want them to be adopted, they dont want the system to be fair or socially useful, they want access for their kids to the exclusive club, with just enough window dressing to make it seem like something else.
Meanwhile, admission to an elite school is neither necessary nor sufficient to a happy, successful life. A couple of the best software engineers I've ever worked with - guys who got 3-4 promotions by age 30 - went to schools I'd never heard of until I met them.
I agree with you strongly that elite schools are not necessary in software engineering, but they make a huge difference in fields like Law.
Pro tip... if you want to be educated well through instruction, don't go to an elite school. The instruction in most of the classes really sucks (with some notable exceptions that are often available for free or cheap online).
Small liberal arts schools tend to do a much better job of educating through instruction.
So trying not to build a aristomafia could be intended as part of the deal with society.
For me, the "HR interview" was "what would you say to convince me of your enthusiasm for physics?" (as in, I was explicitly asked that very question) not "tell me about how your adventures pogo-sticking up the Khyber on your gap yah made you a well-rounded person" (and the "technical interview" asked you do actually do some physics).
As someone who couldn't have afforded a gap yah and would probably have been too frail to go on one, I'm pretty happy about that.
The thing that I'm told they will do is look at your school and weight things like GCSE results and A level results accordingly (as in, if you are at a bad school, they'll make allowances for that). https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/jan/10/how-cambri... is interesting from that point of view.
so imagine how good great test scores and being well rounded is!
For what it's worth, several of my old college friends are heavily involved with extra-curricular programs at the middle school and high school level across a few different states.
From what I've observed, your generalization isn't true at all. The extra-curricular programs are actually heavily populated with students who have two parents working long hours who want something productive for their kids to do after school.
> But what Espenshade and Radford found in regard to what they call “career-oriented activities” was truly shocking even to this hardened veteran of the campus ideological and cultural wars. Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student’s chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis. The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. “Being an officer or winning awards” for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford, “has a significantly negative association with admission outcomes at highly selective institutions.” Excelling in these activities “is associated with 60 or 65 percent lower odds of admission.”
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2010/07/12/how_diversity_pu...
If someone is involved in 4H or FFA in a way that would be compelling for an elite school like Harvard or Stanford, I wonder why they would want to go to that elite school.
To use a simple example in California (where I currently reside), highly competitive / leaders in 4H and FFA people would almost always be much better served going to UC Davis rather than Stanford or Berkeley.
If Stanford or Harvard would be a better fit, I think the onus would be on the applicant to explain why. This is very doable (e.g., a focus on agricultural macroeconomics or investing), but I’m not sure most teenagers who do not have connections to elite schools would naturally think to do that in their application and/or other supporting activities.
Not at all.
I live in an area where 4H is big. Many of those people go to Davis and seem to be very happy with their choice, and it seems to be a good fit. Some go to Stanford or Berkeley, and the differences in interests are pretty obvious, even though they are all 4H participants.
If someone is in a club called Future Farmers of America, and they are knocking it out of the ballpark in FFA, then I would expect that there is a high probability that they will have a lot of future prospects in ag. Harvard and Stanford are (usually) pretty bad fits if you want a career in ag, although I can imagine cases when they are actually a good fit. That said, I think the onus is on the applicant (any applicant actually) to show why they are a good fit.
> The same logic would suggest that a kid who won a music competition in high school shouldn't apply to Berkeley because the other Berklee would be a better fit for them
Similarly, if someone has a lot of music accolades but thinks that Berkeley or Stanford or Harvard is a better fit than Berklee, then I think that the onus is on the applicant to explain why. I am definitely not saying it’s impossible or even difficult, rather just that it needs to be done to show that the school is a good fit.
If you spend much time at these elite schools, you see a few people (more than I would prefer) who are completely fish out of water. They are miserable. Sometimes it is because they are not academically prepared (hard to believe, but true), sometimes they have culture shock due to being not from the NE corridor (for Ivies), sometimes they have geographic shock (winters can really suck if you are from SoCal or Hawaii), sometimes they don’t have many peers who share similar interests (e.g., hardcore FFA folks might fall into this category), etc. Many of these students transfer out or drop out. Those are basically failures in fit that admissions officers try to avoid while also maintaining a diverse class (“diverse” here including geographic and SES diversity).
It almost seems like you may have created a straw man here.
1. I’m not an admissions officer.
2. Of course admissions officers look at what the applicant stated and don’t assume.
3. My question “why would a high performing 4h person want to go to an elite school” is a reasonable one. There are good answers to this question. Sometimes the answer is “I have perfect grades and a high sat score.” That’s not a good answer. As a simple example, I have a friend whose daughter has a lot of potential for an elite school, but she wants to be an animator. Her mom wanted her to apply to Harvard, but after they did some research, they realized that Harvard was not a good fit.
4. The issue with most “research” that claims bias in elite school admissions is that they normalize the data based on grades and scores. The scores and grades at elite schools are heavily condensed at the high end, so they aren’t really the main differentiators (unless you are a recruited athlete). The stuff that the researchers can’t easily quantify often swings the decision between reject and admit.
5. So many people seem to be convinced that elite school admissions officers are actively hostile towards highly qualified applicants. This couldn’t be further from the truth. The admissions decisions may look confusing when folks with similar grades and scores have different admissions results, but that’s probably because a key part of their application is unknown to most people, and/or they were marginal candidates and something seemingly small and not easily quantifiable swayed the decision.
6. The biggest source of discrimination I have seen in elite school admissions is at the local school level. Specifically, I have seen school counselors and some teachers subtly sabotage compelling applicants for reasons that had nothing to do with the quality of the applicant (e.g., counselor preferred someone else, counselor/teacher didn’t like something about the student, etc.). But that’s unfortunately on the student to work around — that is out of the sphere if influence of elite school admissions offices (other than to note potential bias).
7. Lastly, I would love to see the data on the folks who were were active in ROTC, 4H, etc. being negatively correlated. There may be a correlation, but I doubt it’s the cause. I would guess that something that is not easily quantifiable is missing in the application. I will also add that some elite schools have ROTC, so that is especially surprising to me.
How do we square scores being heavily condensed at the high end with still seeing large between-group score differences? We'd expect, surely, to see smaller between-group score differences if one end is cut off.
You are asking about a completely different issue.
That said, I think my last sentence still answers your question:
"The stuff that the researchers can’t easily quantify often swings the decision between reject and admit."
I beg to differ.
Anyone who does any of these things at a regional, national, or international level would probably be very strong candidates, assuming they have competitive grades and scores.
Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools:
- First chair violin in city youth orchestra
- Winner of regional ice-skating competitions, but not nowhere near Olympic competition-level.
- Winner of regional judo tournaments, again not at Olympic competition-level.
- Winner of regional chess tournaments. Not a national champion. Can’t remember his rank, but he actually didn’t spend much time playing or studying chess as a teenager… he was just a crusher.
- Winner of school-based regional trivia tournaments. Attended nationals but never placed.
- Winner of regional solo sailing competitions. Note that free/cheap access to small racing sail boats was pretty easy in this person’s community.
- Soccer player selected to regional-based national team development squad. Note that, imho, this is not nearly as impressive as it sounds. He also played on a “travel team” (about half of whom also made the development squad) that won many regional tournaments, but never succeeded nationally.
- Many athletes who were not recruited (in that they did not get preferential admissions treatment… see “Academic Index” for more insight), but who were varsity athletes in high school and college in track and field, cross country running, rowing, gymnastics, golf, swimming, diving, etc.
> National depends on the sport and instrument.
Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools:
- For instrument, see local orchestra above as being adequate.
- Took two years off after high school to tour and perform with a jazz band.
- Starter on nationally ranked football team who was definitely not recruited to any elite schools and had no intentions of playing collegiately.
- Player on nationally ranked ultimate (“frisbee football”) team.
- Several people who were nationally ranked in various niche sports like fencing, squash, etc., but were not Olympic-caliber.
> International they'd care about even as a bit if it's big enough to get covered in national newspapers
Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools:
- Went to international science fair four years in a row. Got there’s by scoring well enough in locals, regionals, and nationals. Note that this is something that an elite school-bound 4Her could do if they tried.
- Co-authored science research that was published into an international journal.
All of these fall into the “sports, instruments, and 4h” that was originally mentioned. It could easily be expanded if community development examples were included.
Note that most of my examples were regional, so I humbly suggest your concept of what is needed for admission is way off base.
Also note that not all of these folks went to Harvard (not all applied to Harvard), but some did.
Off the top of my head, with provincial city being something like Akron, OH and provincial town being something like Bangor, ME:
Provincial cities in DE, IL, MI, TX, MT, IN, FL, OK.
Provincial towns in GA (2... both near military bases), CA (2), TX, HI, WA, WI, PA.
The interesting thing is that being from a provincial area has a lot of merits (and some demerits).
MERITS
- There is often very little competition for slots (depends on state).
- It's relatively easy to have a very high class rank and to be the top 1% of students that a teacher has ever taught.
- It is relatively easy to find ways to stand out in community development, since there are not dozens or hundreds of local kids who are trying to do the same (some for resume padding, some because they are genuine leaders).
- It is relatively easy to get unique learning opportunities like Rotary scholarships to study abroad since most of the people around you lack interest and/or ability.
- It is relatively easy to latch on to some local research initiative because most people around you lack interest and/or ability.
- It can often be easy to be a varsity athlete in some sport just because you are willing to participate. This is true even if you are not particularly athletic, but you are willing to work at it. This may sound trivial and potentially distracting, but note that some elite schools (e.g., Harvard) specifically rate you on athletics.
DEMERITS
- Many/most teachers will not know how to write strong recommendations, even if that is what they want to convey. Short version... provide specific details/examples that describe someone who is actually amazing.
- One or more folks in the process may try to keep you down, especially if they don't like you -- think school counselor, a teacher, etc. It helps a lot to be liked, but a lot of smart kids realize that K-12 schooling (especially in provincial areas) is the farce that it is, so they are often cynical and antagonistic towards teachers and administrators.
- Since school is often very easy, it can be tough to motivate oneself to study tougher topics, many of which have to be studied at a different venue (e.g., junior college, summer studies, self-study, etc.). The smartest kid in school often chooses to coast rather than push themselves, since it is not clear how pushing themselves has the potential to benefit them.
- Unless they are in a good private school or learn from another source, some/many folks from provincial areas are underprepared for an elite education. They often don't have the same foundation of knowledge and study skills that folks who went to better schools have, often times because they rarely or never had to study. Catching up in foundational knowledge and study skills is not impossible to overcome, but it's definitely starting a square or two behind everyone else.
- You probably won't know anyone at your university going in, but some of your dorm mates (e.g., from Stuyvesant) will have quite a few peers with whom they attended high school.
Definitely not typical rural midwestern town by any stretch then.
I’ve spent time in small towns like that (not in the Midwest), and I don’t recall anyone having any ambition to attend an elite academic school (but lots of interest in elite sports schools).
I still stand by my suggestion that someone from a small midwestern town of 10k in the middle of nowhere can get into elite schools. I think the information available in the internet makes this easier than ever before. That said, I wonder how many actually apply.
That happens in certain circles.
I will add that the list above easily does not include the 10 most interesting people I know who got into elite schools.
The “dirty little secret” that helicopter parents don’t want to accept is that the vast majority of elite school students are just really damn interesting people (typically with great grades and scores). You can’t coach interesting, although you can cultivate it over time as a good parent.
More precisely it was first invented by Yale to limit the number of Jewish students admitted, and was later repurposed to limit the number of Asian students admitted.
I get what you're saying though, being a typical jack of all trades high school overachiever isn't the best strategy for getting into MIT. I don't think that's because they don't consider personality though - heck one of the admissions short answers is "what do you do for fun?". I think it's actually because they are trying to avoid the type that does things just to get into college or just because it's the thing to do at their school. If you're an absolute prodigy then it probably doesn't matter either way, but if you're borderline MIT is definitely the top school that tries the hardest to take the kid that seems more genuinely passionate and not like a social climber.
MIT also does the best job of considering context of all the elite schools. If you went to a great private high school you better have taken full advantage of those opportunities, whereas most other elite schools will just see the better overall resume/prior education. This is pretty clearly reflected in the schools' respective demographics.
...
> is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture
First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please.
Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.
Poor kids are getting 'well rounded' by spending summer break at work, saving enough money to survive the school year.
This is an interesting point: why shouldn't work count towards being well-rounded? If anything, work is much more grounded in reality, and a lot of kids who never had to work in high school and college would come off as out of touch (at least to me, as someone who did work thru high school and college). It would be nice if work experience (even if unrelated to a field) was valued as much as being part of a silly club.
Those kids got in.
I think the point is to show you offer something more than just being good at school. It doesn't have to be volunteer opportunities or something expensive.
Based on the admissions decisions the school made (as reported by Reddit) and the changes to content length made over the years, I suspect the school cares about precisely four things.
- Can your write a coherent essay?
- Can you clearly state what your qualifications to pursue the academic program are?
- Can you clearly articulate why you want to complete a 3 year program?
- If there is a problem in your background e.g. a low GPA, can you clearly state why you don’t think this will be a problem going forward?
I suspect everything else was entirely ignored.
> spending summer break at work, saving enough money
is going to count in your favor
if you go to a competitive high school that sends lots of kids to top universities, then you need to stack up your extra-curriculars to stand out wrt all the other kids in a similar position
Having to arrange separate transportation home because you stayed after school past when the buses leave is also a cost.
But elite schools select for (1) students who will enrich the experience for their classmates and (2) who are likely to have an outsized impact on the world as adults and bring prestige to the institution.
There are some people who are so quantitatively intelligent that a lack of social skills/intelligence doesn't matter (geniuses), but these people are so exceptional they can't be really measured by a test like the SAT. It's too easy to get a perfect score.
Instead they'll distinguish themselves by excelling at STEM competitions (eg. Math Olympiad, programming contests, the Putnam).
Usually if someone has an impressive extracurricular that is tough to document, one of their recommendations will mention it in a compelling way.
As a simple example, a relative of mine was a co-founder and editor of the school newspaper at his high school… and it got banned for uncovering shenanigans within the administration and board of education.
That would stand out in an application.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants
See also: https://www.hbo.com/the-gilded-age. These are the folks who founded Harvard, Yale, etc., and created the ethos of higher education that remains nearly universal in America today.
> Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.
It’s pointless and classist.
Of course, now the term blue blood, just means wealth that has established generational history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastime_with_Good_Company
More seriously, it’s fairly well acknowledged that most of the ivies started as seminaries or were modelled after english places of HL.
This concept finds heritage in Greco-Roman tradition moreso than anything Anglo or Saxon. It's also not uncommon for non-European civilizations to have emphasized educating their elites in both aesthetic and practical matters. For good reason. If your job is to lead a civilization, people are your tool of trade.
The tradition in America has racist--specifically, anti-Semitic--roots. But that doesn't mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. If there's something sorely lacking in modern American culture, it's attention to matters in civic, philosophical and possibly even literary.
yeah, well so are the ivy leagues
I'm trying to say that we all here are skillful in hollow rhetorics.
So are the schools that gated admissions this way.
using this things as credentials to gain entry into schools is a late development.
I was the only kid in my class who didn't go to college, but I went to one of the top 3 prep schools in terms of Ivy League placement in the country, and the entire focus for extracurricular activities was doing volunteer work. Sports, music, fine art and theater were all there as a potential route, but the advisers pushed kids who wanted to do those things as a career away from leaning on them as a way to be "well-rounded" in the eyes of the college admission boards.
TL;DR In my experience, a kid who had no creative talent but took a summer to build houses in Ecuador was much more likely, in the 90s, to get into the Ivy League than one who played violin, or football.
And how is a lower middle class kid in the Midwest supposed to be able to swing a summer off to build houses in Ecuador?
Church groups would be one option.
Or, Kayak shows round trip flights this summer from Cincinnati to Ecuador for $500. So, Set up a table outside the local grocery store for a few weekends with pictures of starving Ecuadorans and beg. Or, gofundme.
I think the key is initiative, which is one of the main traits they’re looking for.
Kind of wild to erase centuries of cultural heritage by implying that teaching academics with art is a uniquely Anglo-Saxan ideal.
WASP is a tiny subset, and that subset has a very specific history with that concept that's coming into play here.
Sorry it felt uncouth to add the race and religion letters...