This is not meant to support or refute any part of this HN discussion, I just found it interesting and wanted to link it.
What a load of bullshit. The OUN which committed literal genocide[0] during WW2 is now openly celebrated. Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Ukraine.
And the whole Wolfsangel and Black Sun are not neo-Nazi symbols argument is the same as claiming the Confederate battle flag represents Southern heritage.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...
Where is it being celebrated? According to wiki on Stepan Bandera [1]: "In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[20] A proposal to confer the award on Bandera was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in August 2019.[21]".
Also keep in mind it even though Bandera was was leader of OUN he was arrested by gestapo in 1941 and was in concentration camp between 1942-1944. Also from wikipedia: "According to Yaroslav Hrytsak, Bandera was not completely aware of events in Ukraine during his internment from the summer of 1941 and had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles"
I don't think ukrainians also deny massacres of Poles in volhynia - the dispute was if it can be recognized as genocide. On the other hand Poles claims genocide about Katyn massacre [2] by Russsia that Russian denies and try to downplay. The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD.
Edit: Also keep in mind Poles don't keep any grudge to Ukrainians for massacre in Volhyn - something that happened 80 years ago. They are happily helping a lot currently 1.5m ukraininans who were running away from the war. Also no Poles even think about taking back Lviv just because a long time ago it was a Polish city.
Would you consider brandishing the colors of the OUN celebrating them? You could see the red and black flag along side the the flags of Ukraine and EU even during the Euromaidan protests. Too informal? How about granting them pensions and veteran status?
> In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.
On technical grounds because Bandera wasn't a citizen. My point was more about how the Overton window shifted.
Based on your response, I feel I should clarify. I am in no way justifying the Russian invasion or Putin's Denazification bullshit. I am only pointing out that Nobody hates neo-Nazis like we do line is inaccurate.
The way I see it, neo-nazi elements exist in many societies and they're not invading cities with tanks and shelling residential blocks. Nazis are a hypothetical danger in the future, Russians are a real danger right now.
It doesn't confound me that the mainstream media, which is mostly entertainment and little information anyway, simplifies and focuses only on the most relevant elements of a story. In fact, in this case it's a good thing they do, lest less informed people get confounded about how big an element the far-right is in this story.
Sure. But organized neo-Nazi militias exist in very few societies. And they are embedded into the national gendarmerie in even fewer cases.
Mariupol is of little strategic significance. The only plausible explanation for Russia's obsession with the city is for narrative reasons.
A sea that Russia controls.
> Intent on building a land connection between Crimea and Donetsk.
Which can be accomplished by surrounding Mariupol. A besieged city, cut off from any reinforcements and supply lines is hardly a strategic threat.
Pre-WWII Germans were very unhappy about Danzig.
Ukraine as a whole isn't really a strategic threat to a country of size and power of Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.
Good point but I think 'unhappy' is understatement. Germany did ultimatum to Poland that they want to have a land corridor to Danzig. Poland said no and Germany invaded Poland later on. So there is a lot of similarity in current situation in a way that current Russia == old Germany
I don't think anyone is really too bothered about Kaliningrad. Are they? It's not like Germany wants it back or anything.
> Russia, but I don't think that cool rationality prevails in the Kremlin right now. Their concept of "strategy" is much more imperial than what we are used to.
Oh, I don't disagree with it this at all. But the only way Putin can back down while still saving face is by pretending that the invasion actually acomplished something. If you wanted to justify the invasion on the grounds of Denazificatiom, it helps to take over the base of the only unit that can tenably be called neo-Nazi.
Which are those very few? And how are they embedded into national gendarmerie there? Why Russia don't wage war in those few, only Ukraine? maybe because they exist in Russia as well:
https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-stat...
Or a more thorough research:
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1514596/1/Wales.pdf
To quote:
"There has been a large increase in nationalistic and xenophobic attitudes amongst Russian youth, and Russians in general, since the collapse of the Soviet Union. In addition, under Putin nationalism has become a conspicuous political and social force"
Why should the western media focus on which troops fight on the Ukrainian side if we have a clear aggressor, the invading country of Russia. It is a bullshit narrative to say they are fighting Nazis. they are fighting Ukrainians, some of which may be Nazis, but so are some of the Russian troops.
That you demand western media acknowledge the absurd and made up casus belli of denazification is simply crazy. It means you bought into the Russian propaganda, whether you know it or not.
Yes.
The narrative weights more than actually winning in combat. Allowing Right Sector and Azov Battalion to work with the Army for the past 8 years is akin to willingly giving the guns and ammo to the Russians. I don't care what the very-far-right (or left) does inside the country, but using them in combat with another nation is bad, because they just might win. It's ok if you plan to use Russians to kill off these people, but it's risky. If some of them survive, they will be heroes. Patriots who bled for the country. They will be allowed to do just about anything for the next decade or two.
I understand the need for soldiers. Very-far-X, for any X, are usually people who can and want to fight. Now, they got a chance to fight. And kill. And, in effect, validate their ideology and gain political power afterwards. Once Russians are expelled, the war ends, the unity in the face of a common enemy dissipates, and the Azov Battalion will be legitimized as national heroes, it will lead to conflict with current allies. Poland, most notably, won't accept it. Germany will also be very, very displeased.
It's not worth it. People from Azov Battalion and similar organizations should never be allowed to fight. They should be in support, logistics, communication, work as medics, do just about anything other than fight, kill, and be killed.
In the short-term using far right militia is a perfectly rational choice. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that, in the long run, using extremists to fight with another nation is going to hurt more than help.
America/NATO and Ukraine can claim what they want in the media and are quoted constantly.
There is a lack of non-aligned third-party verification of anything in this conflict so it's the least the media can do.
If you would like to see what putting arms in the hands of fundamentalists to fight for the US/NATOs side see Syria, Iraq, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Libya etc
As a non white, I would definitely be worried about giving the KKK weapons and a blank card to use violence. Although I can imagine that white people might share my worries.
But I still cannot help but notice how the Western sensibilities changed from "Punch a Nazi!" (in 2020, when most of those weren't even true Nazis) to "Let's not speak of those actual SS-symbol-sporting troops because they are fighting for the good cause now."
Azov isn't representative of the entire Ukraine, no. That is Russian propaganda. It can be dissolved afterwards, yes. But they are on the far end of the far right, no mistake about that. Ukraine has a troubled history with its minorities, many of the guards in the extermination camps were Ukrainians, Polish minority was once targeted etc. People like Stepan Bandera should never be worshipped.
If Ukraine is to join the EU in the future, Azov battalion must be disposed of, much like Irgun in early Israel was. Hopefully without any bloodshed, but their toying with SS symbols goes too far. Even Poland and the Czech Republic, quite staunch allies of Ukraine, wouldn't tolerate this kind of shit being carried openly in a fellow EU country once the war is over.
... and UPA[0] is just a resistance movement against Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, right?
It was "fun" to see UPA flags proudly flying in earlier videos in /r/CombatFootage.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Massa...
What are these, alternative facts?
The US Congress was troubled enough by the Azov Battalion that aid to them was expressly prohibited way back in 2018. Is the US Congress a Russian front too?
Period. Western media has propaganda just like Russian media has theirs. Don't try to spin it as if the West is lying and Russia is not.
I would give you benefit of the doubt, but your post history shows you've been lamenting about the demonisation of Russian media, so your bias, as well as mine, is clear.
Just see wion news. They have been speaking in favor of Ukraine in every news. But, they were banned because US thinks some news might be inappropriate for them. https://twitter.com/WIONews/status/1507378019563974659
Second, we have a classic dilemma. There is a media openly spreading lies and wartime propaganda. Will you teeate the spread of blatant lies, hatred and incitement in the interest of "freedom" when the aim of that very media is not to inform but to incite anger, aggression and sow doubt about the government?
They're a very small percentage of Ukraine population.
If ANY country got invaded some of the soldiers defending against invaders are going to be fascists, it's inevitable. If the US got invaded and you wanted to throw out the fascists out of the army you wouldn't have much of an army lol.
Defending against an invasion from a foreign country is not really the time to discuss political ideologies, bullets are bullets, once the russians are out they can go back to making less than 5% of votes...
> If the US got invaded and you wanted to throw out the fascists out of the army you wouldn't have much of an army lol.
What an absurd premise. How many servicemen do you know?
> the russians are out they can go back to making less than 5% of votes
Right, because there is no way they would draw more support after being lionized as heros.
Op did not claim that the whole military is fascist.
If you're willingly getting a job that entails killing brown people overseas for no legitimate reason you're kind of a fascist :) If you voted for trump you're kind of a fascist.
>Right, because there is no way they would draw more support after being lionized as heros.
Like I said, I don't think this is the time to think about this, if your city was getting destroyed by a foreign invader, would you really care who's fighting the invaders? If they committed crimes they can be dealt with later once Ukraine assured its survival.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220325-azov-regiment...
It's been interesting watching how quickly this narrative changed once Ukraine became the center of attention on social media.
> Defending against an invasion from a foreign country is not really the time to discuss political ideologies
Yeah, yeah, it is like they just popped into existence on February 24.
If Ukraine government was really bothered with them they wouldn't exist now (or at least they wouldn't be a part of the country military forces) and it couldn't be used by Putin as one of the means to justify the invasion. Yet...
There is literal nazis in any army in the world. Armies are rarely full of peaceful left leaning people.
putin doesn't need a reason. for anything. he murdered people for decades without repercussions, why would he need any kind of justification?
Of course all Russian-friendly media platforms are banned. The narrative they bring is dangerous to the false image we're creating here in the west.
Social media platforms are waging war on "misinformation", removing content and opposing views en masse. This is not a secret. We're shielded against "propaganda", not aware we're steeped in propaganda.
The funny thing, even western news media reported on the resurgence of the far right and the prevalence of Neo-nazism in Ukraine, as well as its connection with government post-euromaidan. Referencing these very articles gets you stamped as a Russian bot these days.
The fact is that NATO countries are funding and militarizing neo-nazis in Ukraine in order to undermine Russia. And they're shielding them from bad press. Moreover, government forces (of which the neo-nazi militia is part of) has bombarded civilian areas of the seperatist regions for 8 years, and still do, which has killed about 14k civilians. There's complete silence about this injustice in the western press coverage of Ukraine.
What's most concerning is how normalized it has become to hate Russians.
Please tell us what the West doesn't want us to know.
Let it be clear, I am quite positive the Western intelligence is doing a massive work of propaganda and happy to be able to silence RT. But this doesn't justify and validate the bullshit story Putin has been telling the world to invade a sovereign country.
The other problem is we've labelled it BS to some degree because we just think Russia is making shit up to justify their actions. Maybe we think that because the claim of a "democratic", almost in NATO country becoming nazi is unthinkable, therefore it must be disinfo and propaganda BS by Putin.
Zelensky has banned all opposition parties that were critical of him in any way, claiming they "were all Russians", which looking at a few of the parties banned is clearly a joke.
Zelensky also banned all non-state approved news, forcing all information to be funneled through his one approved network.
This was after banning all males age 18-60 from leaving the country. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-...
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/executive-order-ar...