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Comment by ridehelix | Hacker News Reader

A discussion about folding bikes would not be complete without mentioning Helix. Helix folds almost as small as a Brompton but has 24” wheels and standard bicycle components such as disc brakes, Shimano/SRAM drivetrain etc.

Also the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space. It also fits in a standard airline luggage without any disassembly which few other folding bikes can claim.

The frame is full titanium including the locking mechanisms. It’s made in Canada and is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.

https://www.helix.ca

Full disclosure, I’m the owner/founder of Helix. Happy to answer any questions related to it or folding bikes in general.

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Looks like some of your kickstarter backers have been waiting seven years for their bikes. Are your production issues ironed out yet?

One of the first thing I do when I want to buy a product from a newish startup is check if they've had a kickstarter and see the comments. If there are a lot of negative comments left unanswered like in this campaign, it's a massive red flag

A good rule of thumb I use for Kickstarter and startups in general is: is the world a better place with or without this product? If it is, expect that the process of getting an idea to market is very difficult and can get messy. I try to keep that in perspective. Platforms like Kickstarter help ideas come to life and having it as an option is a net positive for innovation.

Oh, I am very forgiving of campaigns running into issues and do expect a percentage of campaigns I back to fail. I don't treat kickstarter as a preorder. In the past when some campaigns failed and I could see from the update that they made a clear effort, I didn't ask for a refund even if they offered one.

I'm not so forgiving of campaigns running into issues and not replying to comments. In this case, I see that this campaign had a last update in 2017 and people complaining in the comments with no response I can see in the last 4 years. And this kind of lack of communication that's shown in Kickstarter is not a good sign of the integrity of the company (and doesn't look good for prospective buyers).

Logistic problem are understandable, rising costs make sense but in that case, publicize it. I've seen some kickstarter campaigns that had such issues, had a lot of delays and had to sell retail in order to have enough money to deliver their backers reward but they were transparent, published the updates in kickstarter and even made it visible to everyone.

We do our updates on our own customer portal. Last update was about 3 months ago. Our portal has much better ui/ux, has a forum, access to the customers purchase history, one login vs two and some other benefits. Overall it's a far better experience for the customer.

You should comment then on the kickstarter page for any customers commenting there (who might not have realized that) and for people who are not connected to it who would be looking at your campaign...

And yes agreed, kickstarter's UI is really not great..

We were on track to complete Kickstarter deliveries by end of 2020. Still very late by all measures but the challenges of staring a manufacturing company from scratch cannot be understated. It's very hard. Even so, our backers for the most part supported us and anyone that didn't want to wait was offered refund. The pandemic threw a huge wrench into our plans and the last two years have been an incredible balancing act of managing run-away lead times, rising costs and other critical details. As an example, if you place an order for saddles right now, you're getting them late 2023/early 2024 and it's 30-50% deposit up front. Titanium costs just went up 20% and lead times increased by another 30 days due to recent world events.

As another post here mentions, it would be good for me to write about the lessons of our journey as it is unique and becoming more relevant as hardware startups seem to be on the rise. I will do that soon.

What is the production rate of helix? I have never seen one on a street. Compared to Bromptons, Dahons,.. produced in thousands a year. I guess, I have to wait to see a Helix in real, right? How many are there around nowadays?

I think it is great you have managed to ship this but as another poster pointed out there were quite significant delays and frustrations with your backers. Some years backI looked it up again and saw forum discussion with further frustration.

If you have not already done so: you should transparently write up the lessons that you have learned and how you are going to address this for your electric launch to build up confidence. I remember your kickstarter and in retrospect continue to agree with my decision to not participate (I'm the happy owner of a Brompton that I can check in airline luggage instead).

Overall that looks really nice, so thanks for sharing.

A bit of unsolicited feedback; listing the seat post options based on rider height (regular for shorter than 6’3”, and extra long for taller than 6’3”) is wrong.

Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are. If anything, you should list that by inseam.

As it is, I would have no idea which option is the most appropriate.

> Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are.

Thank you, just what I was thinking!

> If anything, you should list that by inseam.

What you want to measure is the PBH (pubic bone height). It is very precise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxZkHpAB4g

Yes, that's how any pro or aspiring bike store will size your bike.

Thank you. I've put it on my to-do list.

> is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.

Do you have sources to back that up?

In the UK, the price on your website lists it as £2,025 (or £3,003 for the higher-end model). I can get a PlanetX titanium gravel bike for £1,799 - granted it's not folding, but you specified "folding or not"!

I stand corrected. I did a relatively exhaustive search a couple of months ago and missed this.

Why titanium?

In my experience (and maybe you'll correlate), all materials involve compromise; there doesn't tend to be a case where a material is outstandingly better in all categories.

Comparing titanium vs. the best steels, it's half the weight but also half the modulus of elasticity and half the tensile yield strength. I wouldn't expect there to be much weight advantage when comparing two tubes with roughly equal properties but maybe this is a case of "every little bit helps"?

If I remember rightly, titanium is harder to process also.

There were many reasons to choose Ti over steel, aluminum or carbon fiber. Steel would have significantly thinner wall thickness and would be less durable. Folding bikes get handled a lot, they get banged up, fall over, experience crushing forces etc. Carbon fiber is also less durable for this use case and aluminum would have been heavier for our design. Ti leaves no compromises other than cost of manufacturing but that is a great challenge to work on and there are many ways to optimize it which we are working on.

Not to mention, Ti is rust proof which is great for winter climates, such as Helix's native Canada.

Would you be open to an entry level version in steel with single speed targeting 12kg or so? This would solve many of the manufacturing and part shortage issues.

Hell, I'd probably buy one without any parts which were standardized and likely to be customized anyway (saddle, brakes, bb and cranks, levers, chain, freewheel) and just move them over from a current bike.

That’s awesome! You are living the dream creating that.

Along the lines of my other comment, have you had any problems with Brompton around your pivoting rear wheel? Your design looks very different from the Brompton but I believe it’s that pivoting rear wheel they are quite aggressive about legally (where they can be).

That single sided front fork is genius!

I really hope you have incredible success, next time I’m looking for a folding bike I will certainly check yours out.

Thank you! The pivoting real wheel was actually invented by Mario Raimondi in 1963, 16 years before Brompton. The patent has long expired and in our case we are pivoting and translating, so it's a new take on this function.

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0001985...

Been a fan for a long time, in fact, my dream bike is a helix with a belt drive (and possibly a mid-drive motor). I do understand a belt drive might require a tensioner, but a man can dream! My current folder has a belt and it's a joy to ride on.

Additionally, I saw there are some electric options coming up in Q3, would you spare a moment to share your thoughts about possible future developments (i.e. if you see belt/ebike options expand in the future)?

Wow, a fan here on hn! Belt drive is possible but it makes for a heavier bike as it usually is paired with an internal geared hub. Also all of the innovation in cycling where maximum drivetrain efficiency is the goal is still firmly footed in chain drive (shimano/sram/campagnolo and a growing group of others). Also right now it’s not a priority as we have a lot of open projects: accessories, electric, scaling manufacturing.

Mid drive on the other hand would be a more challenging project because of the space and packaging constraints of our design. But, rear hub motors, which is what we’re using, have improved a lot recently; they are lighter, 2 speed, quieter and are considered to be comparable now. You also have a far more flexible upgrade path when technology improves as it’s not tied to the frame.

Electric Helix is going to be pretty ground breaking because up until now, the only other compact option was Brompton which is front wheel drive.

So maybe the dream bike is still possible, just a bit different.

Thanks for the response!

Definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm excited to see how well can Helix make the pedal assist with rear wheel motor work. What I like in particular is that the setup will be more upgradeable than most mid-drive builds.

With respect to the belt drive, glad to hear that's still a possibility (albeit not a priority, which is fine). This is just a single data point, but if there was a Alfine 11 option with a belt, I'd pull the trigger and buy one right now. Well, perhaps I'd wait for the rear rack and the luggage case that I understand are in the works, those are killer accessories.

For me personally, the weight is less of a concern, at least in the vicinity of the low numbers where current helix builds are. To illustrate, my current 20 inch folder is about 15kg (belt+alfine 11) and I find that quite manageable.

In any case, keep rocking on, I hope you guys succeed - it's exciting to see such novel bike engineering happening here in Canada :)

Another +1 on the belt drive. I owned a Cube with a belt drive for a number of years and absolutely loved it. True "zero maintenance", and none of the other problem a chain brings (oil, dirty right-pants-leg, oily hands after putting the chain back on). Switched to an electric a few years back and couldn't find one with a belt drive under 5k.

Belt drive would need a bunch of frame changes though (mostly rear fork). Actually, looking at the design a bit more, it might work without modification.

This seems a good chain-vs-belt write up (for the hn reader)

https://wheretheroadforks.com/chain-vs-belt-drive-bike-pros-...

Front wheel drive is nice in the winter - I hadn't thought of that until I watched a friend going up a steep snowy road with no problems, while 2wd cars were stuck. The electric motor on the front wheel, his own pedalling on the back wheel: Both wheels are powered. He had traction like a 4wd car.

I feel alfine (mushy, inefficient, wears out in not much longer than a chain drivetrain) as the only igh option (and explicitly making choices that prevent a rohloff being used) and no belt drive is a deal breaker for anyone with the kind of money to blow that is seeking something as convenient and premium as possible.

A bike that is always clean, never needs you to mess around finding a secure lockup and almost never needs service is the dream, and stopping 90% of the way there for want of 3kg seems so strange.

Thanks for posting that. A while ago I've been looking at Bromptons for my third bike (first is my long distance / gravel Kona, second is my cheapo 30y old city bike that I leave on the streets). I love Brompton's folding ingenuity (AFAIK they do fit a carry on as well on most airlines), but one thing I couldn't get past is their use of custom components. To me this thing is what Apple would do if they were making bikes. Beautiful, practical, hip, but man you'll rue the day when something breaks. All seems to be custom made by them / for them.

Major kudos for using off-the-shelf standard components. I can't over-stress this enough.

I'm not saying I'm pulling the trigger and ordering straight away (I've had this idea in my head for well over a year, so far just waiting for a good excuse / trip idea), but it's definitely made it close to the top of my list now. Even though it's pricy at around 3k Eur, given the titanium frame it's probably still well cheaper than equivalent Brompton (Chapter 3 or such).

I haven't had the pleasure of riding a Helix but I would love to try.

Can you clarify what you mean by “the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space“

The Brompton's folded size is 585mm high x 565mm long x 270mm wide

The Helix is 580mm x 635mm x 230mm.

I beleve what he is saying is that if they had used 16” wheels like the Brompton their fold would be smaller. But they have gone with larger 24” wheels for better durability and ride.

Going by those dimensions, Brompton takes 89l of space, whereas Helix takes 85l, so I guess they meant the overal volume when rounded up to a containing box.

I do have some questions: why don’t your bicycles have a spoiler above the wheels to prevent water and/or slush from spattering all over the rider? Are there attachments that can be separately added? Or are these meant to be used only in dry and clean(er) conditions?

Mud guards are coming as accessories, see [1]. I believe they should be ready by this summer [2].

[1] https://helix.ca/#accessories

[2] https://www.helix.ca/store/?categoryID=3

I noticed on your site that a carrying case won't be available until Fall 2022 but I'm wondering whether you're imagining a case along the lines of a suitcase or something more like a backpack. My primary vehicle is a motorcycle and since moving to my current location, biking has entirely fallen off my daily schedule because I have no easy way to transport a bicycle and there are no good paths near me. Something I could strap to my back would be a solution better than I could've hoped for to my dilemma. It'd be an instant buy for me.

I love the animation of the bike unfolding on the landing page.

folded:

Helix 71.12 x 63.5 x 26.67 cm

Kwiggle 55 × 40 × 25 cm

While twice as expensive the Helix looks much more like a decent bike at roughly the same weight. Like many folding bikes and scooters the Kwiggle looks like you could get seriously injured if you hit something (small). Before your face hits the pavement you would try stick your leg forwards but it has these scary looking spikes there.

That's a beautiful bike!

Thank you. Designing it was a labour of love. It’s function over form in every detail. No gimmicks, cheap materials or manufacturing short cuts like using castings for example. The welded frame components are all cnc machined from titanium blocks and the frame is robotically TIG welded in an argon chamber in our Toronto factory. We literally spare no expense in making them.

Is it available for display in any store around Toronto?

Not yet, but soon. In the mean time you are welcome to come to our factory. Email is on our website or you can pm me. Thanks

But $3-5K for a bicycle?

How can I justify that if my Mazda3 2008 is worth that much, and still runs perfectly fine?

A well made titanium bike will easily outlast your Mazda and have better resale value. You’re getting outside and active. Lower carbon footprint. Never pay for parking. There’s so much more.

A bicycle is not a car, in the same way that a tablet is not a PC. If you want the former, the comparative price of the latter isn't relevant.

If you want to talk about why they're expensive compared to cars, IDK... cars are mass produced by robots in Japan and the bikes are small-scale assembled in Canada by people.

FWIW, there are many non-folding bikes that are $3-5K

Do you sell in Europe?

They do! [1]

> What countries do you ship to?

> Helix ships worldwide.

[1] https://helix.ca/support/faq/

From the picture it looks like it would be unsteady unless you hold firmly onto the handle bars - is that right? What happens if you let go?

I'm also surprised by that seemingly negative fork rake.

This claims stability is more determined by fork ~trail. http://avaghon.nl/download/Naloop_Bikestability-Forkrake.pdf

This bike has a steeper head tube, reducing trail. But reducing rake (even if it goes negative), increases the trail again.

Stability is more complicated than just that, though... iirc bicycles have a bunch of nodes, including 1? 2? that are unstable but slow enough that riders don't notice they're compensating.

This looks nice, but even though you ship internationally, how am I going to have my bike serviced on the other side of the world?

If you are not too picky about the exact model of replacement component, you can get most components at bicycle shops on the other side of the world. They are quite standardized.

We have a 10 year warranty on the frame. Replacement parts can be shipped worldwide in 3-10 days. The components such as brakes, drivetrain, wheels are industry standard and can be serviced by any bicycle shop.

OK the specs look fantastic. I'm very interested! Looks amazing, and will be following. Thank you for building this.

Amazing design, thanks for sharing!

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