Folding bicycle small enough to fit in hand luggage | Hacker News Reader

Folding bicycle small enough to fit in hand luggage

kwigglebike.com

538 pointsbwindels415 comments

I've spent a long time with folding bikes over the years. My advice: bite the bullet and buy a Brompton[1].

Yes, Bromptons are expensive. But they ride like a bicycle, have gears, a stiff enough frame, luggage racks etc. There's very little compromise. The fastest I've done on mine is 45 kph and I've ridden 70km in a day. I carry it on and off buses and trains multiple times a day without issue.

In the past I had an A-bike[2]. It's a fun and cute little design but the wheels are absolutely tiny and has no gears. You feel like you're riding a folding contraption rather than a bicycle. The build quality was rather plasticky too. I like the idea of an A-shape with telescoping tubes. It's quite an ingenious fold.

I've also ridden (but not owned) a Pacific CarryMe[3]. The ride experience again suffers for the short wheels and no gears, but it could be useful for some. The fold still leaves you with quite a long package.

I'd love to try the Kwiggle bike. I don't think the strange seat will cause as many problems as people think, but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy. Maybe it's worth it for the small fold.

For a more out-there design I think the Halbrad/Half-Bike[4] could be quite nice but it never really got past the prototype stage. Under-seat steering is a bit of an adjustment too.

[1] https://www.brompton.com/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-bike

[3] https://pacificcarryme.com/

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQIC138vmlE

A discussion about folding bikes would not be complete without mentioning Helix. Helix folds almost as small as a Brompton but has 24” wheels and standard bicycle components such as disc brakes, Shimano/SRAM drivetrain etc.

Also the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space. It also fits in a standard airline luggage without any disassembly which few other folding bikes can claim.

The frame is full titanium including the locking mechanisms. It’s made in Canada and is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.

https://www.helix.ca

Full disclosure, I’m the owner/founder of Helix. Happy to answer any questions related to it or folding bikes in general.

Looks like some of your kickstarter backers have been waiting seven years for their bikes. Are your production issues ironed out yet?

I think it is great you have managed to ship this but as another poster pointed out there were quite significant delays and frustrations with your backers. Some years backI looked it up again and saw forum discussion with further frustration.

If you have not already done so: you should transparently write up the lessons that you have learned and how you are going to address this for your electric launch to build up confidence. I remember your kickstarter and in retrospect continue to agree with my decision to not participate (I'm the happy owner of a Brompton that I can check in airline luggage instead).

Overall that looks really nice, so thanks for sharing.

A bit of unsolicited feedback; listing the seat post options based on rider height (regular for shorter than 6’3”, and extra long for taller than 6’3”) is wrong.

Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are. If anything, you should list that by inseam.

As it is, I would have no idea which option is the most appropriate.

> is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.

Do you have sources to back that up?

In the UK, the price on your website lists it as £2,025 (or £3,003 for the higher-end model). I can get a PlanetX titanium gravel bike for £1,799 - granted it's not folding, but you specified "folding or not"!

Why titanium?

In my experience (and maybe you'll correlate), all materials involve compromise; there doesn't tend to be a case where a material is outstandingly better in all categories.

Comparing titanium vs. the best steels, it's half the weight but also half the modulus of elasticity and half the tensile yield strength. I wouldn't expect there to be much weight advantage when comparing two tubes with roughly equal properties but maybe this is a case of "every little bit helps"?

If I remember rightly, titanium is harder to process also.

That’s awesome! You are living the dream creating that.

Along the lines of my other comment, have you had any problems with Brompton around your pivoting rear wheel? Your design looks very different from the Brompton but I believe it’s that pivoting rear wheel they are quite aggressive about legally (where they can be).

That single sided front fork is genius!

I really hope you have incredible success, next time I’m looking for a folding bike I will certainly check yours out.

Been a fan for a long time, in fact, my dream bike is a helix with a belt drive (and possibly a mid-drive motor). I do understand a belt drive might require a tensioner, but a man can dream! My current folder has a belt and it's a joy to ride on.

Additionally, I saw there are some electric options coming up in Q3, would you spare a moment to share your thoughts about possible future developments (i.e. if you see belt/ebike options expand in the future)?

Thanks for posting that. A while ago I've been looking at Bromptons for my third bike (first is my long distance / gravel Kona, second is my cheapo 30y old city bike that I leave on the streets). I love Brompton's folding ingenuity (AFAIK they do fit a carry on as well on most airlines), but one thing I couldn't get past is their use of custom components. To me this thing is what Apple would do if they were making bikes. Beautiful, practical, hip, but man you'll rue the day when something breaks. All seems to be custom made by them / for them.

Major kudos for using off-the-shelf standard components. I can't over-stress this enough.

I'm not saying I'm pulling the trigger and ordering straight away (I've had this idea in my head for well over a year, so far just waiting for a good excuse / trip idea), but it's definitely made it close to the top of my list now. Even though it's pricy at around 3k Eur, given the titanium frame it's probably still well cheaper than equivalent Brompton (Chapter 3 or such).

I haven't had the pleasure of riding a Helix but I would love to try.

Can you clarify what you mean by “the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space“

The Brompton's folded size is 585mm high x 565mm long x 270mm wide

The Helix is 580mm x 635mm x 230mm.

I do have some questions: why don’t your bicycles have a spoiler above the wheels to prevent water and/or slush from spattering all over the rider? Are there attachments that can be separately added? Or are these meant to be used only in dry and clean(er) conditions?

I noticed on your site that a carrying case won't be available until Fall 2022 but I'm wondering whether you're imagining a case along the lines of a suitcase or something more like a backpack. My primary vehicle is a motorcycle and since moving to my current location, biking has entirely fallen off my daily schedule because I have no easy way to transport a bicycle and there are no good paths near me. Something I could strap to my back would be a solution better than I could've hoped for to my dilemma. It'd be an instant buy for me.

I love the animation of the bike unfolding on the landing page.

folded:

Helix 71.12 x 63.5 x 26.67 cm

Kwiggle 55 × 40 × 25 cm

While twice as expensive the Helix looks much more like a decent bike at roughly the same weight. Like many folding bikes and scooters the Kwiggle looks like you could get seriously injured if you hit something (small). Before your face hits the pavement you would try stick your leg forwards but it has these scary looking spikes there.

That's a beautiful bike!

Do you sell in Europe?

From the picture it looks like it would be unsteady unless you hold firmly onto the handle bars - is that right? What happens if you let go?

This looks nice, but even though you ship internationally, how am I going to have my bike serviced on the other side of the world?

OK the specs look fantastic. I'm very interested! Looks amazing, and will be following. Thank you for building this.

Amazing design, thanks for sharing!

My understanding is that Brompton have a patent on their particular fold configuration and so no one can copy it. I’m very much of the opinion that that fold is the most compact while keeping your cycling position close to that of a normal bike. Every other compact folding bike is fighting for a design against that patent, and it can’t be done. This looks to me like one of those designs, if the designers had been able to independently develop a fold without infringing Brompton they would have come up with something very similar to them, not this strange contraption.

You can see the Brompton influence, one pivoting wheel and folding cross bar with a 45deg hinge. But they have had to compromise in order to not infringe the design resulting in a very odd seat design.

I have spent many many hours trying to design a fold as good as Bromptons and haven’t managed too, it’s just too perfect.

That patent was from 1979 so it must be long expired.

No. There are lots of Chinese and Korean knock off Bromptons available.

Our shop has noted that Brompton bottom brackets are low quality. Often poorly aligned to the frame and the threading frequently needs chased.

Yeah, I'm going to second this. Even the 16" wheels on a Brompton are pretty miserable on bumpy roads (Boston); the Kwiggle has even smaller wheels.

The fold on a Brompton is just about perfect. It takes no time at all. I'm a little annoyed to find that they're using copyright to keep a monopoly on it, but certainly not so much that I'm going to give it up.

I tried out a Tern, a Dahon, and some random ancient thing. I've never regretted spending the extra coin on the Brompton. The fact that all the greasy bits are in the middle when it's folded means you throw it in your trunk without thinking about it. It means you put it between your legs on the subway without thinking about it. The fact that it folds in seconds means you don't miss your train fumbling with it at the fare gate.

The only downside I can see is like half the parts on the thing are bespoke. Replacing a derailleur, for instance is not something your average shop can do. Ditto the shifters.

It's the Apple of bikes: the tight integration of the components gets you an absolutely magnificent package (at a premium price), but you get some lock-in as a result.

Would you recommend the A-line or the C-line?

The Brompton is bigger and heavier than this though. The Brompton A line is 25.3" x 23" x 10.6" and 25.6 lbs (64x59x27cm and 11.6 kg.) This is 21.6" x 15.8" x 9.8" and 20.9 lbs (554025 cm and 9.5kg.) Nearly five pounds lighter, 7.2" shorter and 3.7" shorter - that's a big difference for some of these use cases.

For example, lugging it around on public transport, or bringing it on a plane, or just dragging it around a city for the day - this thing easily wins, there’s just no comparison. I haven’t rode one of these so of course I can’t say, but the fact that they rode it all around the entire IJsselmeer (one of the largest lakes in the world) - which is a serious bike ride even on a normal bike - is a pretty good sign that this bike isn’t terrible to ride on, even if it may not quite be a Brompton. So the comparison becomes “decent portability and excellent biking” vs “excellent portability and decent biking”. I think that’s a fair tradeoff. If anything, I wish it would go further - give me half the size and a mediocre biking experience and I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

That should be 55x40x25 above - forgot about the italics formatting and now it's too late to edit.

Did you ever look at the Strida? It was designed in response to the Brompton, with a simpler fold and the ability to wheel it around on its actual wheels while folded, rather than little casters. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton (it's more golf-bag like), but the footprint is similar if there's something to lean it against.

I'm very happy with mine, and it has most of the advantages you list - luggage rack, real bike feel (my longest day is apparently 64km and top speed 64kph). The sensitive steering takes a bit of getting used to the first time but you adapt quite quickly. For me the simple fold (and, sure, lower price) feels like a big advantage compared to the Brompton, which is what several of my friends have.

it's either brompton or strida. other bikes are just dumb. tern. dumb. moulton dumb. pacific cycles dumb. dahon dumb. birdie dumb. bike friday , kinda dumb. old raleigh folding tanks ....the list goes on. any bike with under 16"" wheels is also totally stupid . retardedly so, unless it's for some niche clown world where bumps don't exist and you don't ride the thing farther than a mile.

It was a difficult decision for me to spend 1.300 EUR in a Brompton, but I don't regret it a little bit. I have to admit I didn't use any alternative as a long term foldable bicycle, but after 3 years with the Brompton I don't have a single complain. Great quality, minimum weight, nice riding, fast un/folding. Everything you would expect from a portable bike.

Regarding the cost, I'm quite sure I could sell mine for more than 800 EUR while any other alternative would lose at least 50% of the value and probably require more maintenance.

I like my Beixo with shaft drive. A bit on the heavy side, but can carry it close without getting dirty.

The A-Bike was a project by Clive Sinclair (ZX Spectrum etc) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-bike

Had one for a bit, very small wheels, was kindof fun but in London its just easier to have a normal bike and arrange your commute so that you use it, rather than carry a small bike around.

I also had a Strida, really nice design and a good balance between usefulness and foldyness

https://www.strida.com/

i owned an A bike for like a week. they are unrideable. entirely and totally unrideable on real roads of any kind unless you want to damage your prostate.

I'm sure Bromptons are great, but the prices are just ridiculous, and their marketing grates. I really don't need my bike to be handmade in London.

I have a Decathlon foldable. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton, so I wouldn't want to be regularly taking it on public transport. But it's light and solid, folds easily and rides well at about one third the price.

£850 / 1090€[1] sure it's a bit expensive, but ridiculous really? I find it really funny to find such a comment on a forum where a big chunk of users are fine paying more than twice the price for a laptop.

[1]: https://fr.brompton.com/shop/bikes/a-line?color=white&handle...

Any bike that costs as little as yours does is probably in reality a pretty poorly designed and built bicycle. Bromptons are actually pretty cheap as far as bicycles go.

I've done lots of touring, including one 1600km trip in China, with a Dahon Speed P8, which has 20-inch wheels, which are likely a bit more pleasant than the 16-inch wheels of the Brompton. It's also a good option if you're looking for something lower priced. If you take the wheels and pedals off and pack it correctly it's possible to fit inside a Samsonite Oyster 29 suitcase which fits regulation dimensions to be accepted as normal check-in baggage on most airlines.

That said the bike in TFA looks interesting for multi-modal commuter use in e.g. Singapore or other such cities where a Brompton likely would not be accepted on the subway.

There's also the JZ88 (https://jz88.com/shop.html) which is claimed to be Singapore MRT-acceptable but I haven't used it.

Folding bikes to me have always been "fits in trunk of car".

This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if it collides into the electric scooter market.

I think dahon bikes are fairly nice, but I have not tried a brompton.

I have a dahon mu n360 with a variable transmission that I like quite a bit.

https://dahon.com/bikes/mu-n360/

However recently I bought two bikes direct e-bikes - pretty versatile and go off-road/to parks:

https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-elec...

I wonder how people use their folding bikes?

I have a Dahon Briza, with 24in wheels. The main thing was that a couple of them can be easily loaded in my car. Otherwise I just ride near my home.

I am not totally satisfied, but it is OK. I'll probably change the crank gear to be larger, the very lowest gears aren't useful right now because they are so slow.

I also can't ride it without having at least one hand on the handlebars.

Having fenders is nice, but they are very flimsy.

Price was a lot lower than a Brompton.

I use mine in two ways: 1) Multi-modal commute. I ride my Brompton to and from the train station on both ends of my commute, about 2 miles per segment. 2) Weekend/vacation cruising, if I'm going somewhere on a car or ferry, it's easy to take the Brompton along.

I use my Brompton as an alternative to walking. It is good enough to be my only bike and practical enough that I have no inclination toward a special wardrobe.

It’s a great tool.

I have a dahon mariner bike. I like it even though I lack the boat it’s supposed to pair with (I put it in my car). It doesn’t fold as small as the bromton, but I think the wheels are bigger.. it’s useful to have the bike when traveling, dropping car at shop. I think I like the Danone better than my brothers bromton e-bike (which he won in a raffle.. lucky). Ebikes are great though.

Heh I learned about the Brompton from the quirky BBC show "W1A", where it was treated as a kind of strange status symbol.

Hm, that show just made fun of British corporate culture, and Brompton spearheads this.

Although to be fair I never worked for a company where there was at least one Brompton.

Having said that there’s something very British about it IMO. But I am not British.

here in Singapore Brompton and Birdy are MAMIL standard ride.

Since you have experience with folding bikes (but anyone's help will be welcome). Do you know if folding bikes are viable at all for a tall person? (about 197 cm / 6 ft 5.56 in)

It would be convenient for me to have one due to lack of space in my apartment, but from an external observer perspective they all look like too small and like I would need to ride hunched and uncomfortable, so I haven't really looked into them. But maybe it's just prejudice.

I'm 6 ft and ride a regular Brompton. They also make a telescopic seat post for taller riders, and the H bars are designed for a more upright riding position. They're surprisingly flexible in setup but I would definitely try and get a test ride.

The easy answer is go to a bike shop and do a test ride. I guess it will depend more on your build - how much height is in your legs vs body for example.

I'd like to add a type of bike which is tiny but not foldable: a Minivelo.

I recently ordered a frame on AliExpress [0] equipped with internal cable routing and disc brake mounts, 2.25'' tire clearance. My build looks like a gravel bike. A gravel bike on 20'' with an 11 speed cassette, a drop bar and SRAM derailleur. Of course, not to miss a great carbon sear post. Including pedals and tires, the bike accounts for 10kg. In order to take it on flights, I did sew myself a backpack to fit the bike. Taking the bike apart takes me 10 minutes. It is a tiny bit too large for hand luggage but ideal for being checked in.

For me the frame is a great compromise between size, stiffness and maintainability.

Velo orange [1] does offer a lovely frameset, too. It's just hard to get by in Europe (at a reasonable price point).

[0] https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600169443757/SILVEROCK-Chrome...

[1] https://velo-orange.com/collections/neutrino-mini-velo

Sure Brompton has the most experience with these kind of bikes, but a steel frame on a bike that is supposed to be carried around? If I would spend that amount of money I would probably go for https://www.r-m.de/de/bikes/birdy/ with additional benefit that it is a German manufacturer ;-)

Brompton have both steel and titanium frame bikes, depending on your budget.

Birdie, Birdie Touring, Birdie Rohloff, ab 12.9kg, 12kg, 13.1kg, respectively. Heaviest Brompton: 11.5kg.

So much for German engineering in this case ;-)

I'll second that. My dad had a different English folding bike in the 1980s, got rid of it and got a Brompton that he kept for 30 years. I had a Dahon that was ok I guess but the Brompton was way better. The Dahon had lots of frame flex and the folding headset, folding pedal, and flimsy seat post never worked right.

The thing is the Kwiggle is not just small but offers a new way of cycling which is much better for your body and uses more muscle groups than normal cycling. You have to ride one to understand :-)

> Bromptons are expensive

Half the price of a Kwiggle [1]. Seems like a bargain to me.

[1] Comparing apples to apples, the base Brompton is a 3-speed for 850 euros. The 3-speed Kwiggle is 1690.

In which country can you get (a new) Brompton so cheaply?

Back in the mid 2000s I used to ride a 2 miles, 45 minute train, then 7 miles to work, and back, 5 times a week on a Bromptom. No problems, it was ideal.

I then moved and I lived at one end of the Central line in Essex, about a 1 minute walk, and worked a similar distance in West London.

Took about 55 minutes for the train to go, always got a seat in both directions.

However during summer I would ride on my Bromptom one way in the morning two or three times a week - took about 24 miles, or 2 hours, I'd then fold it up and take it home on the train.

My next move was too far to ride (45 miles each way), and less than a mile from the station at each end so didn't do much commuting riding then, and I moved to be a home worker in 2011, but I still ride my Bromptom around the country lanes. Occasionally think I should upgrade to something with more than 3 gears (it's relatively hilly where I live).

The bike itself I think cost £520 back in 2005, a new one of the same model is over £1k now, not sure what the second hand value is

I do a regular 25 mile commute one way across London, train back myself.

One of my routes includes Hampstead and Highgate, a decent amount of climb. I tried the 3 speed hire Bromptons, but went for the 6 speed when I purchased one. The upgrade was well worth the money, I doubt I'd be able to get up those hills on the 3 speed.

I would wholeheartedly agree with this. I've tried Dahon, Tern, and one other frame I can't recall after pining for a Brompton for years but eventually bit the bullet and purchased one for myself. No comparison. It's my favourite bike for non-snow/slush conditions. Bike Friday was also on the short list but I didn't have the opportunity to try.

Good on you for doing 70km! That's about the limit of my comfortable endurance on it too. My record is~100km plus two ferry rides touring on the west coast but I admittedly walked it up the last two hills in the dark and I started to wish I was done around 85km.

What do you use for checked airline travel? I have the B&W hard case but haven't tried anything else. I think it is a linear inch or two over regulation if measured but nobody has ever stopped me or charged overage.

Your B&W case is about 4" over regulation, I believe, but I've read that last year many airlines began waiving the oversize fee for bikes (the weight limit still applies, but a Brompton plus the case should easily meet it). So tell the check-in agent there's a bike in the case if they ever decide to measure it.

I'm in the process of building aluminum cases for two Zizzo folders my gf and I just bought. I'm keeping them under the size limit to be safe, but because they also convert into trailers (to haul carry-on) and are relatively beefy, I'm bumping up against the 50 lb weight limit for economy seats. Right now I'm scratching my head as to how to incorporate casters and center stands with only 1 lb left to play with. :|

If you are not "made of money", buy a Zizzo: 25% the price.

I have a Zizzo and bought one for each of my immediate family members. Everyone loves it.

Amazon has reasonable pricing+availability for USA people.

I bought 3 Zizzo Forte, and 1 Zizzo Urbano. The Urbano for my 9 yo daughter to make it slightly easier for her to manage.

Just my comment to "but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy".

Kwiggle is a new movement for a flexy human being. Humans have been accustomed to putting their natural flexibility into a rigid posture on a bicycle for 200 years.

If you are thinking the bicycle from the anatomically view, you should invent a bicycle, that could be ridden upright with your flexible natural movement similar to the walking.

This was the first idea of the Kwiggle. And this is an opportunity to get back to your natural flexibility. After a little get used to, Kwiggle will adapt to your movement and not the other way round.

My biggest question is the combination of an extremely short wheelbase, small wheel diameter and, perhaps more importantly, the negative fork offset and the steep head tube angle. It seems it would be extremely easy to get thrown over the handlebars when hitting an obstacle... What's your reasoning behind this geo? Is it only space saving?

It all comes down to what is your reason for using a folding bicycle...

I really love my light aluminum non-folding bike that is pedal-powered... but if I would buy a folding bike, it would be electric-motor powered.

When I lived in Amsterdam, I rode a regular (non-folding) bike. It didn't have gears - but I didn't need them. If you do in-city riding, and your town is planar, gears are not necessary. And you won't be going 45 kph anyway.

On the other hand, if you ride 70 Km a day - why would you even need a _folding_ bike? That means you do serious cross-country riding. Use a regular bike.

I got my brompton in 2006. Still bike it almost daily.

Another half bike worth mentioning https://halfbikes.com/

> In the past I had an A-bike[2]

I've had an A-bike in the past as well, and while I like the idea in principle, it's essentially a scam, due to the extremely low-quality materials - some components in the transmission are made of plastic, and they're bound to break rather quickly (I think it took me just a few months, even with around 20 km/week).

I have had tons of use of Decathlon folding bikes (https://www.decathlon.com/collections/folding-bikes), which are waaay cheaper than Bromtons, and still surprisingly bicycle-like in my experience.

How about Strida? I had a folding bike and always found that the chain grease in my pants was a limiting factor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strida

Looks good and its made in the UK from what I gather. I will definitely give Brompton a try.

Bromptons are fantastic but there are many folding bikes with gears for much much less money. Decathlon Oxylane 120 retails for €289, with taxes, for example. It's not a Brompton, but for 1/4 of the price it doesn't need to be.

What am I missing. I looked at the Bromton and it’s ~$3,800 or roughly 1/12 of the Decathlon.

For shorter rides the saddle thing can be no biggie, but on long distances your butt will curse at that thing. Saddles are more important than people would acknowledge.

Buy a Tern (sp edit), better components on a Brompton frame

They are different bikes for different things.

The Brompton is a much better folded bike (it's a lot smaller, it actually stays folded, it doesn't have exposed greasy parts when folded, you can use it as a shopping cart, etc).

High end Terns (Verge) are more like a normal bike with good components but they are nowhere near as compact when folded (likelihood of walking it into a shop and not getting yelled at is nil, unlike with the Brompton), they don't have as good commuter accessories as the Bromptons and they ride much stiffer (which is good or bad depending on what you are doing with the bike).

Source: own both

I own a Tern Verge myself. Got already > 1'200 km tracked, although not using it that often. Beside some ... issues (a pedal broke, the brakes need some adjustments from time to time and one tire (that I changed myself, I have to add) loses some air over time) I really love it. Especially being able to push it and not having to carry it when it is folded is a big plus for me.

Why are they all so big? Is there no fancy material that can make the frame as thin as a drinking straw and still strong enough?

I rode an A-bike for a few weeks and it was pretty uncomfortable but it was faster than walking.

Hmmm interesting do you want me to hack this?

Thank you for having us here to discuss Kwiggle. I am the inventor and owner of Kwiggle and would like to give you some insights:

We have been developing Kwiggle for 10 years and producing Kwiggle for almost 3 years.

Every detail has been carefully designed to create a 10kg lightweight folding bike that can even be folded into hand luggage and still go as fast as a normal bike. We have selected materials and manufacturing processes for the drive unit and rims with the highest wear resistance in the bicycle market. We use high-strength aluminum and stainless steel parts for the frame and have extensively tested the stability of the frame and drive unit dynamically and statically.

Our 35 suppliers for material, components and parts manufacture according to our requirements with highest precision, because precision is another important factor for stable and durable components of a folding bike.

In the meantime, our greatest motivation is the many enthusiastic feedbacks from our many customers, who at the moment still come mainly from Germany. We are already shipping the Kwiggle all over the world and Kwiggle already is ridden on every continent.

So we are happy if you take a close look. Please assume that we have already thought about almost every little critical detail that is discussed.

So if you are looking for a very compact folding bike, feel free to take a close look.

The movement on the Kwiggle is new, but very close to your natural walk. And when even a 85-year-old man writes to us, "I can only do two things: ride a rollator and ride a Kwiggle, but I enjoy the Kwiggle more." Then you can assume that you can ride the Kwiggle very well, too.

I'm very interested in your product, however it's a big leap of faith to buy it sight unseen! When I buy a bicycle I'd like to try it out and ride it around. Do you have any intention to sell it from bike shops or retail channels in the US?

I know you've collected some positive anecdotes but I don't see many reviews from third parties out there yet, so I really can't commit to it. Is this simply because the product is still new? Can you say how many are already out there on the roads?

I can completely understand your concerns. we sell directly to the customer. we do not calculate retailer margins in the price. We have delivered the first Kwiggle by the end of 2019. 95 % of our sales are currently still generated in Germany. we have started selling to US in december 2021. We have now sold Kwiggle all over the world and Kwiggle is now already riding on every continent. Our first customers have made more than 5.000 km and up to 8.000 km with their Kwiggle. You can't do such a complex product with a lot of high tec parts with a production of some. You have to set up big production lots.

There is a first test report from a journalist of SPIEGEL:

https://www.spiegel.de/auto/faltrad-kwiggle-im-test-achtung-...

Kwiggle was part of a test of folding bikes from BikeBild:

https://www.kwigglebike.com/web/image/37936?unique=b95a1aead...

There will be further longer test reports from various journalists/media this spring.

Question: Why the trolley? Was it an afterthought, or was it not possible to make the bike wheel(s) perform that function when folded?

Good question: The trolley mode needs two features: Rolls and handle. The distance between both should be up to 1 meter. We couldn't use simultaneously the handlebar as handle and the wheels as rolls for the trolley.SO we decided to use the adjustable handlebar as handle and put extra rolls for more trolley comfort. Compactness means short measures all over and that requieres extra rolls.

I'm basically sold on your product but I have a question I wouldn't ask even a month ago, though now it feels relevant. Where do you (and your suppliers) source your raw materials from?

We have 35 manufacturer with different material sources. More than 80 % of our suppliers are based in Germany. 10% of the parts are made in Italy, then we have MKS (pedals) and Shimano (gearshifter) from Japan, some parts come from Taiwan and some from China.

It looks absolutely amazing, but calling it "affordable" at €1600+ is a stretch. You can find non-electric folding bikes for under €200 that are quite sturdy and dependable (although not that small when folded).

A few months ago I bought a used folding bike for €100, equipped it with a motor and battery that cost less than €400, for use on train trips.

Nothing feels better than getting out of a long-distance train trip, unfolding your bike and going about your way in a different city... No taxis, no complex public transport map to understand, nothing but freedom.

I got a kick out of the banner at the top of the shop answering everyone's first concern which is "Why is the Kwiggle so affordable?"

A clever way of answering the actual first question "why so expensive?"

They think its clever - I think most people would see through it and just be pissed. Not sure why companies think they can get away insulting the intelligence of their consumers (who, in this case, would have to be wealthy enough to afford their product and hence can be reasonably expected to be smart enough to spot it).

Because it's telling the customer that if you don't think it's affordable you're not the target market.

for a 10kg foldable bike it is certainly affordable. Most of them (if not all) are more expensive

At that price, if you are regularly commuting by train it would be cheaper and more convenient to have two bikes, one at either end. And you could have two pretty nice bikes.

I guess the appeal of the folding bike is more for irregular or infrequent trips.

Totally agree on the freedom aspect. Bicycles are ideal for inner city travel. Cars should be banned. I often use public bicycle shares when I travel now which is great because you don't even have to fold/carry or lock the bike up anywhere.

> I guess the appeal of the folding bike is more for irregular or infrequent trips

Yep, this is how I use it. I have another ebike for everyday use.

Not sure about the two-bikes concept though, because long-term bike parking is still a huge problem, security-wise, esp. for ebikes.

This depends on where you live of course, here in the Netherlands most big/well trafficked train stations have one or more secured bike parking.

The NS (Dutch National Railway) sells a secured bike storage subscription starting from 75 euros a year. And you can do it cheaper if you use your bike frequently because at some stations the first 24 hours are free.

And if you have a cheap bike that you use just for your commute you can also just put it in the free bike storage and only move it secured if you know you will be gone for >2 weeks or whatever the limit for free storage is.

Yeah, there needs to be more secure bike parking. A reallocation of space from car parking to bike parking is an obvious solution. In Cambridge there is a bike parking facility that I would feel confident leaving a bike in for long periods but not every station has such a thing.

That being said, I know people who have done the two bikes thing, or at least one bike that "lives" at a railway station, for a long time and not aware of them having any problems.

Folding size would justify the price.

The 200€ one won't help you if you need to fly it. Even for road trips, for 2 adults in a city car, the size constraints could be enough to not bring two biggish 200€ along.

Basically, the choice comes to a 200€ bike you never bring along, or 800/1600€ bikes you can bring anywhere.

Did you use a conversion kit? I have an older Dahon I'm thinking of converting. Any tips?

Yes, a motor + battery kit. It's really simple -- depending on the bike. For a folding bike you need to think ahead of where the engine and battery are going to go when folded. Mid-drive motors are much preferable, if possible (at the center of the bike, between the cranks).

There are two Chinese brands for the engines: Bafang and Tongsheng. Bafang has a better reputation; I used a Bafang for my first conversion (a regular MTB). But Tongshengs, in addition to being a little more affordable, are true pedal assist: power is proportional to the force you put on the pedals. It's a different experience from Bafang, but pedal assist feels better on a small folding bike, IMHO.

You can buy them on Aliexpress; look for vendors who have inventory in your country, which allows for faster shipping.

Here's the final build:

https://i.imgur.com/TBHHOc1.jpeg

... and on the road in Marseilles:

https://imgur.com/a/B2mJ17E.jpeg

Look into velogical motors. Their tiny build size and removable battery should be a perfect fit.

http://www.velogical-engineering.com/velospeeder/produktinfo...

It is affordable for the workmanship and materials used. All stainless steel and aluminium.

By that measure an Audi R8 is affordable, after all it's literally just a Lamborghini Aventador in a much cheaper package, for the money it's an absolute bargain.

As bambax said - that's not what affordable means. Affordable is all about whether the target market can afford it, not whether it's good value for the materials and work put in.

That's not what "affordable" means, sorry.

thanks for your comment. we have adapted the translation on the page.

Two of the most important advantages of a folding bike, namely the weight and the folding volume, are also the largest cost factors in the product price.

The price is a matter of quality of material and manufacturing and number of parts. The lower the weight, the higher have to be the quality, the more compact, the more high-tech parts are required. the more expensive will be the bike.

You can't produce a folding bike with only 10 kg and only 55 l of folded volume that can easily be ridden up to 25 km/h and is stable for people from 1,30 m to 1,95 m and up to 100 kg for prices below 2,000 euro, unless you produce 100,000 or more in a year or you sell directly to the customers.

If that’s what you mean, then think it’d be more accurate to describe it as “good value” rather than affordable.

Thank you for opening my eyes on the price... I'm just a simpleton

I've owned a Bike Friday[1] gnu since 2007 and my wife has both a Tikit and larger touring one which I don't think has a name (Edit: she reminds me it is a 'new world Tourist'). (they are basically custom bikes). I carried mine on Caltrain while commuting, it folds quickly and even if the bike car is full you could easily just stash it in the luggage rack car. They even had a Samsonite suitcase that was the correct size so that you could fold it, put it in the case, and check it as luggage on airplane flights. We both really enjoy them.

The Tikit (which is closest to the Kwiggle which is linked here) is similarly quick to fold and unfold, and quite portable. Before the scooter craze people were leery of riding a bike with smaller wheels but for most things it is fine.

My general impression has been that if you are worried about how you are going to store your bike when you get where you are going, folding bikes can be a big win.

[1] https://bikefriday.com/

Big fan of Bike Fridays - mine's a New World Tourist too.

I wouldn't take it on a crowded (UK) commuter train: the fold is much larger and more ungainly than a Brompton. But you can go touring up hill and down dale on it, on the sort of route that would leave you panting on a Brommie. Plus it works great as an everyday bike even in circumstances when folding isn't important.

Bike Friday is what my friend, Bikeshop Bill, recommended when I called him for advice on folding bikes...he'd told about his father touring Europe on a folding bike.

I gave them a serious look and realized they weren't for me because I am not a cyclist. For me, a bike is a tool which isn't to say Bike Friday bikes aren't tools, but rather that looking at Bike Friday made it clear that a Brompton would be a better tool for me...e.g. it has a bell out of the box and doesn't anticipate I own a specialized wardrobe.

Folding bikes are better at most of what bikes do; sitting around waiting to be ridden.

There’s no good way to store a regular bicycle. All of them are compromises of convenience, security, floor space and weather protection.

Storing vehicles is a social problem not an individual one, given that by their nature people tend to use them to commute, go shopping etc.. (If you live in some crazy jurisdiction that has decided to allocate lots of public space to car storage and not bike storage, then you have a problem, but, uh, don't do that)

The issue with bicycles in public spaces is that they get stolen all the time, even the shitty ones. Folding ones neatly avoid that since you can rather easily store them somewhere safe wherever you go.

My bike is actual not theoretical.

Storing it is very much my practical problem.

The solutions are orthogonal to the presence or absence of parking lots, quays, and hangers in my community.

For me, folding it up and putting it in a closet seems simpler than changing civilization. YMMV.

Now do cars.

I leave my car outside because rain doesn't effect it's powertrain lubricants.

It has integrated locks and unlikely to be stolen. It can't be picked up and thrown in the back of a van.

Or just ridden off.

I come out and the seat isn't wet and the chain isn't rusty.

Everything is dry and ready to go.

I think the Brompton with their 16” is the lowest I’d want a grown adult human to ride. Even in urban areas, there’s lots of uneven surfaces, speed bumps, pot holes, cobbles, you name it. So even 18” is a compromise - I live pretty rural and a 29” MTB with chunky tires and full suspension is as comfy as it gets, but also a must for rooty singletrack etc

I don't think I could ever get over the look of the small wheels.

It seems like the fanny pack of bikes: pretty useful but you gotta look dorky if you want to use it.

It's vain but I'd find it hard to believe I'm alone here.

The bicycle is a real pinnacle of beauty among human invention. When I think about the concepts of "function" and "form" in design, they are at peak marriage in a bicycle (I need not even point to a specific era). I'd own 10 if I had the space.

The folding bicycle is bastardized version that shoehorns the concept of portability at the expense of nearly every other quality except "gets from point A to point B".

I'm likely wrong and they probably are a great solution for many but goodness.. I love normal bicycles too much to look at a folding bike with anything but cringe.

Many types of fashions or styles have appeared dorky at some point in time and cool at another point. Maybe you can be part of the group that helps transition these bikes from dorky to cool!

Personally, I have a folding bike with small-ish wheels; yeah, it looks quirky, but it works well and fits in my closet, trunk, etc. so I don't care. I'd maybe buy the kwiggle too if I could afford it

It's a bit of a chicken and the egg thing. I thought the same thing when I lived in America. I moved to London where Bromptons are very popular (invented here) and I saw so many people of all kinds riding these tiny-wheeled bikes that I no longer find them to be dorky. Just utilitarian.

More than the look, I'd be more worried about going over the bars at the first deep pothole.

With the height of the steering wheel I'd be more worried about falling over backwards.

Genuine question, do you seriously worry about that? I mean, what are you concerned about? That people would think you uncool? What sort of people would think that? People you want to think highly of you? Your position seems so strange to me, I'm just trying to understand it.

I mean it's the same as fashion for me. I could wear poorly fitting clothes and poorly matched items of clothing, but I don't.

I care about how I look and present myself. That's not exactly unique, and it doesn't have to be strongly tied to me caring if people think I'm "uncool".

I'm not suggesting it's unique, I'm saying I don't understand it. If you don't strongly care, why does it matter? Are you suggesting your opinion on how to present yourself is not influenced by others? In which case, how do you decide if something is good?

This is not at all like poorly fitting clothes. The bicycle is clearly used as designed.

I suppose what I don't understand is that I embrace unusual. Something that raises a discussion is partly what makes something interesting and worth doing. It seems to me you present the question around fashion as one of fitting in, and that seems a somewhat depressing view of the world when laid out so starkly.

Even though of course I care about what people think about me, I would never admit that as being the reason I would dismiss something a priori. It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.

I get random compliments on my Brompton. Like seriously, an old lady stopped on the sidewalk while I was unfolding and said, "That's a beautiful bike." Also teenagers yowling "Nice bike!" as I cruised by. It's weird.

My penny board fits in carry-on luggage, is allowed on airplanes, can be ridden inside airports, and looks cool as heck when you ride in the city. Plus it weighs like 3lbs and costs $100.

But it’s a little more work to ride than a bicycle

> looks cool as heck

Citation needed

Also a hell of a lot more dangerous. I'll take a bike any day over pennyboards or longboards.

What airports are you skateboarding in?

I've done SFO, CDG, NYC, OAK, and I think Frankfurt. Super convenient and the floor is smooth as butter.

The only trouble I ever had was at LJU, which is a tiny airport, where security wouldn't let me bring the skateboard as carry-on. Guessing they aren't as used to seeing weird stuff happening.

Yeah, guilty of that feeling, too. I am used to MTBs, I think I just would feel ridiculus, like riding a childrens or a clown bike.

But if I would live in a big city, I might get over that feeling, since it does seem practical.

More than look I am seriously worried about stability when hitting a pothole. With its small wheels and high riding position, the bike is targeted at people would literally want to fall flat on their face. I would not dare to ride anything with wheels smaller than 18".

We are swiftly destroying the planet because people don’t want to look goofy in a small car, and insist on an aircraft carrier-sized truck. And now the same attitudes go for bikes too?!

Real bicycles also have larger wheels for a reason - its much more efficient and rolls over bumps and ruts much easier.

What do you mean by efficient?

Why would a larger bicycle be less eco-friendly than a small, intricate bicycle with many bespoke components?

I presume the parent meant that "not riding a bike because it makes you look dorky - and instead riding a car" is less ecofriendly.

Correct, this is unfortunately how humans work. It has to have that cool factor.

I am puzzled by the choice of derailleur gears over intra-hub gears.

The motivation must have been that it allows the integrated rims and hubs, which are probably much easier to manufacture than spoked wheels at this size. The downsides seem significant though: A derailleur with gears this small is going to wear very quickly, and when it is time to replace it, you just have to hope that Kwiggle is still around to supply you with spares.

I have been a bike-fiddler since my teenage years, but it was only recently (40+) I tried taking apart an intra-hub gear. To my surprise, the whole gear mechanism is fitted to the axle an can be replaced in one go [0]. The only functional parts of the hub/housing is half-bearings and ratchets. The cool approach for Kwiggle would be to replicate these and just pop in a Shimano gear.

[0]: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/sm/SM-IHG-INTER7_ENG.pdf page 43 ff.

For your information: I am the owner of Kwiggle. The sprockets on the Kwiggle have 7, 8 and 10 teeth and are naturally more stressed than larger sprockets. That's why we use sprocket material that is significantly more wear resistant than anything on the bike market, including Shimano and Campagnolo. The chain is Connex 8Sx, the best you can get. Our first customers are already almost 8,000 km on the road with first set of chain and sprockets.

We have customers that have driven more than 7000km on their first gear set

Okay less maintainable if it breaks but ... will it really break? I've done loads of miles on my bike with derailleur gears and that's not shown any sign of wear or failure.

Each chain and sprocket are subject to wear. Each sprocket of any bicycle must be replaced after a certain time. And the chain elongates and must also be replaced at some point. The chain also elongates on the Kwiggle, but the sprockets adjust to the elongation. Therefore also with the Kwiggle, the sprockets and the chain must then be replaced at some point. One of our first customers drives already 8,000 km still with the first chain and sprockets. This is quite much for a bicycle.

Hub gears are also comparatively heavy; one of the selling points of this is it's low weight.

Intriguing design and it looks like they've sold enough to see some real-world success, but I can't help but think the headset must be under extreme torque with a 150+ lb person sitting on essentially a large lever.

That and the small wheels don't inspire confidence dealing with the typical curbs & potholes that one is likely to encounter in an urban environment.

What's the use-case for folding bikes like this? Is there a pervasive lack of bike racks in certain places that would necessitate stowing a bike in such small quarters?

From a British perspective it's quite often public transport, bikes are banned on the tube afaik and taking them on trains can be hit or miss, some routes require a specific (and hard to get) cycle booking, most local buses are a non starter and even intercity buses are a big problem (they will often require your bike be dissembled / be in a hard case bike bag thing).

There are none of those nice bike racks on the front of American buses here. The whole system is fairly hostile towards active travel.

> The whole system is fairly hostile towards active travel.

And even more hostile to PLEVs. Electric scooters still illegal (beyond a few set-up-up-to-fail rental trials), a 250W limit on eBikes, and no hope whatsoever of electric skateboards, OneWheels, and so on ever being legal on roads or pavements.

Yet still people wage war on the car, without any attempt to make alternatives more viable.

And despite the roads being at breaking point, the trains being overcrowded and ludicrously priced, and road safety/bike theft/weather deterring all but the most dedicated cyclists, somehow transport isn't even a significant political issue in the UK.

(London-centric politics doesn't help. Many Londoners, particularly politicians, don't seem to have a clue about life beyond the M25)

And even on train lines that do allow bikes, like the Liverpool-Manchester line, you probably won't get a full-sized one on at rush hour, and even feel anti-social with a Brompton. At least in the past; I haven't done it for two years. They're also handy for putting in the car for riding from where you park it, like on the city outskirts.

One use case is for cruisers (sail and power). Having some kind of go-machine to get from the marina to a real market is often preferred over taxis/rideshares due to cost. Some high-end marinas may have a car or something to borrow, but that's rare.

What I've read from people who fall into this use case is the biggest requirement is a large wheel size. (This one wouldn't be great for that reason.) You'll want big wheels and fat tires to deal with, shall we say, less than optimal road conditions. The other main requirement is, of course, some kind of load carrier. Usually some sort of trailer, though several Dahons have a carrier. Dahons are the usual go-to brand.

I've been looking at folding bikes like this.. in my case, I'm a private pilot, and I'm looking for ways to solve the last mile issue of getting from my destination airport to somewhere fun to go - ie a nearby beach, or into town for dinner, etc. Size and weight are important in my use case, since general aviation aircraft don't have alot of cargo space.

This bike looks like it would be a decent fit, but I'm not sure I can convince myself to shell out 1500 bucks for it... So the search for a last mile solution continues :-)

Similarly I like to get very cheap ($40-$70) round trip flights to random town and explore around. Unfortunately my uber from the airport to the town is usually more expensive than the flight. Most small towns don't have much in the way of airport buses.

Wow, that's amazingly cheap.. where are you flying out of and how are you finding those fares?

Why not take an rideshare/taxi? It seems you'd be able to even optimally schedule the rides in advance. I wouldn't want to ride this thing on car-only roads.

Rollerblades will take care of that 1.6 mi commute in Cadillac in about 10 mins.

hah - there are dozens of us! let me know when you find a solution...

Use cases: Traveling by train (Kwiggle fits under the seat), commuting everywhere, leaving Kwiggle in the car trunk with enough space left, because trunks are designed for handluggage size, and taking it for last mile, putting it in the camper van, in the sail boat in the sport airplane, in the boat, ...

The only thing I can come up with is last mile commute, but for that probably a bit larger foldable bike would do.

Btw. In UK on certain routes or during rush hours you can only take a foldable bike onboard.

Bike racks are not very secure; in many cases it's better to bring the bike with you in your office and keep it there.

A use case is crowded rush hour trains where space for bikes is at a premium

It'd be nice for short trips where you are concerned about theft. Bike racks are far less secure than just keeping your bike with you.

so i bought a folding bike from decathlon about 1.5yr ago and never been happier since. its following model:

https://www.decathlon.fr/p/velo-pliant-oxylane-120/_/R-p-120...

they actually went up in price since then. swapped stock tires because they were rubbish and also bought better seatpost from upper model. removed all the unneccessary stuff like ringer or mudguards and this thing flies. im getting average speed about 18km/h on my rides and done about 4000km so far without any problems. this is perfect city bike in my opinion. if this thing had disc brakes it would be even better.

I used to like Decathlon but their quality has gotten worse and worse. The bike I bought there 3 years ago or so must be the single lowest quality product I've ever owned. Of course when it's new you don't notice at first until things start breaking. It wasn't the same model as yours so I hope you have better luck but I'll definitely NEVER ever buy a bicycle at Decathlon again. Utter garbage.

Most stuff I bought at Decathlon was of reasonable (above-expectations given the pricing) quality. But now I'll need to find another place to shop, as they (with a number of other French companies) are expanding in Russia, instead of shutting down: https://www.theretailbulletin.com/sports-and-leisure/decathl...

You may have gotten a bad item. I bought an MTB from them 4 years ago, transformed it to electric (which it's not designed for), rode 10,000km+ on it, on many different roads, in all kinds of weather, and the thing is still as good as new. It's really indestructible. I also bought bikes for my kids, and had friends buy bikes from them, etc. Never had any problem.

Hard to do proper disc brakes without hydraulics and hard to do hydraulics on a folding bike. The minimum bending radius of the brake lines is the limiting factor.

I have used hydraulic disc brakes and mechanical (wire) disc brakes. Yes, it's not the easiest to set up, but on my Hayes MX5, it works well enough that I have to seriously worry about locking my brakes :)

Disc brakes with cables work absolutely fine. Yes you're leaving some performance on the table compared to hydraulic, but most folding bikes aren't used for racing.

Cable-actuated hydraulic brakes seem to get good reviews.

I've had them, also hybrids (boosted), compared to full hydraulics there is an enormous difference and I would definitely use a cable actuated system over rimbrakes if there was no alternative but only after exhausting every avenue of getting hydraulics to work. I like the option suggested by the other commenter of using an automotive flex hose for the folding part.

An automotive brake hose to bridge the hinge will be like $5 per bike. Or just use nylon tube like small aircraft.

That would probably work, but you'll have to cook up your own adapters.

Seems like it's bordering on push-scooter levels of top speed and stability...what's the benefit of such a small bike compared to a scooter?

I used a push scooter in Munich in combination with buses and trains. It was fine for short distances of like ~1.5km or less, going to/from transit stations, but past that distance it just gets fucking annoying. Standing up on a push scooter and constant pushing with your feet just isn't as comfortable as sitting down and pedaling.

Also, the non-inflated rubber wheels I had on the thing were very uncomfortable (and loud) on cobblestone-type roads. Almost infeasible to use, really. But otherwise it was a pretty convenient thing to have.

Fair enough, but from the looks of that bike it doesn't really look like it'd be comfortable much more than a few kilometers either.

There are push scooters with inflatable tires (I've seen them here in the US) but not sure how much that affects the weight and portability.

I had a push scooter, and they're very dangerous.

Wheels are small, board is short, and center of gravity is high. It just takes a small pothole covered with leaves (so, not even winter), and the driver will fly forward (I did).

E-scooters are heavier, with larger wheels and longer boards, so they may be less accident-prone, but I've never tried one.

A scooter has very bad stability. Your weight is centered, whereas a bike distributes force wider through each foot. Larger tires can handle most surfaces, while a tiny pebble, crack, or wandering ghost could flip a scooter rider into the nearest car or old lady.

Scooter has an even smaller wheel and is more unstable during high speed. Also bike is more muscle-efficient.

Overall it's questionable on muscle efficiency. The main problem with scooters/skateboards is that beginners don't learn using second leg (it feels unnatural and takes practice). Thus getting tired with pushing with one leg.

Another thing at this form factor you can get electric skateboard, muscles are concern.

The logical end of the scooter sequence is probably roller blades, and I do know people who use those to get around and consider them practical.

I have no idea whether this bike is any good.

However, the limit on how good a bike is are defined by materials and geometry together. With strong, tight and shock-absorbing enough materials, you could theoretically create a race-quality bike in a form-factor like this.

When or if such things will appear is hard to say. The Bike Friday seems to be at the quality of a decent road bike but foldable into a suitcase (they've had the same basic design for twenty years so twenty years of materials improvement might create a pretty extraordinary thing).

See: https://bikefriday.com/ (relative to other comments, slightly larger than Brompton but I think more of a bike that really can be your only bike).

I have a Bike Friday (and I even visited the factory in Eugene OR to pick it up, which was fun). There's a clear difference between it and a Brompton, slow-fold vs. quick, essentially. I have gone on great plane trips with my Friday, but it wouldn't be very practical for taking on public transit, and it doesn't fold up much without coming apart, and that takes tools and time.

Bike Friday are pretty popular in the Willamette Valley, I guess some local pride. My neighbors have a couple and taken them all over the world, I think they put something like 60K miles on them by now. They look pretty goofy but seem to do the job.

I can't see myself on one of these things but I never had a commute where it would be necessary, in a pinch maybe it's the lesser evil.

One benefit is the ability to sit.

I commit on an e scooter every day, 15 minutes each way, and its more comfortable to stand on it than sit on my bike saddle.

I think more people are familiar with riding bycicle and thus it maybe easier for them to go longer distance. But yeah scooter would be smaller and lighter,even electric powered ones. Longboard would be even lighter. It takes some practice to start, but for city commute it's quite good and can't beat the portability.

An electric scooter I'd expect to probably be heavier than a tiny portable bike like this, unless the range is really short.

Longboards I think still have serious usability/safety issues compared to scooters and especially bikes.

So the Kwiggle can mount a Ortlieb or VAUDE bag on its luggage rack. How about an Ortlieb or VAUDE bag that can carry the Kwiggle, then double as a bag on its luggage rack? Is that possible?

Great idea. We'll look into it. :-)

Honestly, you'd go flying over the handle bars upon hitting the tiniest twig.

I've been riding Montague Bikes for years -- on the other end of the folding bike spectrum. Full-size wheels, rides so much smoother. Doesn't fold down as small but it goes in the trunk of a car or can be carried on the train and that's all I really need.

I also ride Montague Bikes. I'll give my use case. I need a normal, full size bike for most of my riding. However, sometimes I need to put my bike and a few others into the trunk of a car - the Montague folds small enough to make this happen. To have the ability to fold it into vehicles I think there is some added weight compared to other bikes in the frame thickness as it does not have the durable standard diamond frame shape. Also, their flip down bike rack to kick stand is a really cool design.

No you don't. I ride a Kwiggle every day through the woods. It's much more stable than it looks. :-)

If portability is the ultimate goal then its probably better to go with learning how to ride unicycle instead of buying a intricate folding bike with a lot of compromises.

Sometimes the the problem can't be fixed with a technical solution and the user simply needs to learn to use a new tool ;)

Couldn't agree more. Electric Unicycles are unbelievable, here are the benefits:

1. Size / Portable, about 7" x 17" x 24"

2. Agility, better maneuverability around cars and obstacles

3. Speed, can go >40mph, most of the time you only need 15~25mph

4. Hands free, can carry stuff

5. Wheel size is 16" and up (better than scooters with small wheels)

Downsides:

1. Weight, 40lbs and up (my current one is 65lbs)

2. Electric only

3. Safety - if it cuts out, your falling off (has yet to happen to me)

4. No exercise like a bike (I became much weaker after I stopped riding my bike)

5. Expensive (starts ~$1300 for basic, likely will want to spend $1800-$2400)

Really? In my experience they are very unpleasant:

- heavy to carry by hand, which you need to do when you arrive at your destination (can't leave them on the street in a bike rack)

- can't jump on and off of sidewalks without stepping off and carrying them; very dangerous around potholes and other irregularities on the road

- difficult to use in inclement weather (no mud guards, etc.)

I bought one around 8 years ago; still have it but never use it; the battery must be dead by now as I have not charged it in a very long while.

The downsides of weight, safety, exercise were what got me to back to bikes after 4 years and thousands of km on a OneWheel. I gained ~10% bodyweight while I commuted with the OW and lost it all within a couple months of biking.

I think the niche of "personal vehicle that you can take on the metro" is better filled by PEVs. Shrinking down a bike's drivetrain size is harder than just putting together a single wheel, some circuit boards, batteries, and an electric motor to make an electric unicycle.

A big advantage EUCs have is you don't have to bother with folding like a bike, just hop off, grab the trolley handle and walk on.

Electric scooters have similar advantages but they have to compromise range, performance, and compactness for their ease of learning.

I haven't had a chance to try a single-wheel electric vehicle as they are not street legal in Germany. But usually I vastly prefer riding a bike over an electric stand-up scooter. My weight is distributed much better on a bike, making the right more stable. On a scooter I cannot reliably raise one arm to give a turn signal. Not signaling can be quite dangerous on shared roads or narrow paths. I never see anybody else indicate their turns on these scooters, so it's probably not a personal problem. Did any manufacturer figure out a way to put easy to read indicator lights on these?

The other thing is that you actually get some light exercise on a bike. Most people with desk jobs would do well to move their bodies a bit more during their days.

One thing that's nice some times about scooters is being able to stand up tall, rather than get into a slightly hunched up position on a bike. The Kwiggle from the GP allows for quite a unique upright body position. So that may be intriguing.

I usually spend a few minutes waiting for public transit, though - which would be more than enough time to fold up a bicycle.

Once you get used to it, folding a Brompton takes less than ten seconds. I'm not as fast as this guy, though: https://youtu.be/Z-SRASKLqh8?t=36

Going to be really inefficient and possibly unstable for anything that is longer than a few blocks or anything where the terrain changes. Bike wheels are large for a reason

Have a look here: https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/faltrad-300km

300km on one day with a Kwiggle.

Yep, steering is hard with small front wheels

And risky too, obstacle resilience goes up rapidly with bike wheel size. This will get you killed on the first tram track that you try to cross.

I tried a Brompton and a Birdy, and I went with the 9-speed Birdy with shocks when I lived in Macao. It took me a week to get the folding down in a variety of situations, but it rode just like a full-size road bike. The Brompton didn't seem anywhere near the comfort or ease of getting up to speed. Maybe Brompton makes a better model now? I bought the Birdy in 2010-11. I still have it, and it rides great.

The question to ask is: how do you carry your hand luggage with the bike that fits in the hand luggage?

Brompton can sorta solve this by having front and rear cargo carry (bias: I own an older Brompton and have travelled from seattle to california by train with it. see also knockoff versions of it like https://jcat.bike/ )

Here they show how to attach your trolley bag to the bike and pull it behind you. I reckon this requires quality wheels on your luggage. https://kwiggle.odoo.com/home-kwiggle-rollkoffer

Besides that you can attach a standard bike pack (e.g. from Ortlieb) to the frame of the Kwiggle or carry a backpack, of course.

I have a Tern Eclipse X20 (hard to find) which is a folding bike with a different design point, trunk rather than luggage. It weighs about 23.6 lbs and has 24" wheels with an SRAM Rival and Force groupset. I've upgraded the front derailleur to an SRAM Yaw which is by far the best FD I've ever had. I also swapped out the FSA crank (the worst) for a Shimano 105 (working man's groupset).

It's a folding bike which lives in my car's trunk. It's also easily and quickly adjustable so that I can bring one of my other bikes for me and then set the Tern up for pretty much anyone else.

It's a little small for me and with a short wheel base, there's a limit to how steep it will go without the front wheel just lifting off the ground.

One of the positives that I've found with this bike is that I like smaller wheels, 24" rather than 700C. You accelerate faster. It might not work for a road bike doing a loop ride but for urban riding, I do like it.

Unless you really need the act of pedaling, you should also strongly consider an EUC. They have trolley handles, fit under a seat more easily, go as fast as you could ever want, have much larger 16" wheels, and can easily handle any hill. Kingsong 16s got me to and from the bus every day.

If you're willing to develop a new skill, an electric unicycle is much better on several dimensions. The IPS i5 easily fits in backpack.

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000043671440.html

If you ride those at anything like bicycle speed, how do you perform an emergency break without hurting yourself?

You lean back as hard as you can and the regen breaking stops you. It works pretty well actually, if you look up "EUC braking test" on YouTube you're likely to find some videos that will give an idea of their braking performance.

"When kwiggling" told me everything I need to know about their target market.

Montague makes various full sized folding bikes. I’m quite pleased with the Navigator, but they even make a folding mountain bike, the Paratrooper.

When unfolded, you can’t tell at all that they’re folding bikes.

For those who ride/own folding bikes, what are your reasons for favoring them over a regular bike?

Every metro area I’ve lived in allows bikes on trains and city busses have racks on the front. Leaving a bike in a secure lobby/hallway, garage has almost always been an option. That said, I don’t hesitate to chain mine up on the street either, so I’m having trouble seeing a folding bike as offering any advantage in most situations, especially considering the compromises that are often made in comfort and performance.

I am a bit of a folding bike enthusiast in that I love foldable/small means of transport in general. I've been tempted by a few folding bikes over the years, but in the end after looking at display models, reading reviews, etc, I haven't purchased anything to replace my trusty 2013 Brompton. Sure it's not the lightest or the smallest, but the thing is a tiny tank that just keeps going and going. It's durable, folds elegantly, and feels nice to ride on even for longer distances.

You can't actually bring any of these folding bikes on an airplane as carry-on can you? I wasn't able to bring a tent cause of the thin poles after all.

Apparently you are allowed to bring X-Acto knives(!) on-board so long as the blade is not installed in the handle[1] when you board so I have given up on making and assumptions about TSA security theater.

1. https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPd5YV7A6/

I saw someone bring a Brompton as carry-on, with the caveat that it was up front on an international flight (lots of bin space).

Yes you can :-)

tent or bike?

I was riding my Brompton bike in Manhattan a couple months ago, and a guy pulled up on his Kwiggle !!! I was shocked that someone had a smaller bike :)

I'm happy to see such a lively discussion of folding bikes / bikes as a mode of transport in general on here. So many different solutions! Given how small the wheels are, I'd love to see something that counters the consequent instability (very little angular momentum compared to a "real" bike).

For this particular one, what a unique way to mount the seat.

Thanks to the saddle device, you will get much more weight on the pedals and therefore ride easily very fast despite the smaller wheels.

The stability of the ride is achieved when you relax the handlebars and the Kwiggle adapts to your movement, not vice versa. That is the whole secret.

These small bicycles have one major disadvantage: The wheels are too small to provide much of a gyroscopic effect while riding, so they are far less stable than a traditional bicycle. https://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/bicycle-wheel-gyro

This is largely a myth. A rotating bicycle wheel does generate a small amount of gyroscopic effect, but it is too small in comparison to the weight of bike & rider to make much difference. People have built bicycles with counter-rotating front wheels[1] to prove it.

Smaller bikes may feel less stable, however I suspect this is simply because smaller wheels will be affected by smaller road imperfections that a larger wheel would simply roll over.

[1] https://theconversation.com/how-does-a-bike-stay-upright-sur...

I wonder why there are so many conflicting opinions on this.

It may be that those trying to discredit the benefit of gyroscopic stability are looking at the first order effect of the gyro/wheels on keeping the bike upright, when in fact it is the force from the front wheel on the handlebars/steering, and the man-in-the-loop.

https://ezramagazine.cornell.edu/summer11/researchspotlight....

Own and ride a Brompton, which has 16" wheels. It's perhaps marginally less stable than a full-size bike, but I'm willing to believe that it's mostly down to steering geometry (smaller wheels limit how far behind the intersection of the steering axis and the ground you can put the contact patch) not gyroscopic effects.

For a proper judgment of the riding characteristics a look at the practical use when riding downhill could be helpful:

https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/faltrad-vs-rennrad-am-berg

This ride felt absolutey safe.

The large advantage is that the wheels are very light, and spin up with little inertia. On my Brompton, I break away from red lights instantly, faster than road bikes.

How much smaller than the classic Brompton is this

Note that Kwiggle is the only folding bike with handluggage size. That is very important, because handluggage fits everywhere. So does the Kwiggle: Under the seats in trains, in backbox of sailing boats, in the airplane,...

In volume about 40% 55 × 40 × 25 cm

Does anyone make a less compact folding bike that uses larger tires? The Brompton at 16" is starting to get interesting and while the Kwiggle does look very nice for certain situations. But I think what I would want the most is something with more standard size bicycle wheels that can still fold to be a bit more compact for use on public transit.

I ride a Tern Link D8. It has 20" rims, usable gears, and a pannier rack. It rides really well for a folding bike and is half decent for transporting a couple of bags of stuff around. Most of the running gear is off-the-shelf Shimano which helps when sourcing spares.

The trade-off is that it's quite big when it's folded and fairly awkward to carry. Unlike some folding bikes, it doesn't wheel when it's folded up so you have to lug around a fairly awkward metal lump when you're not riding it. And it rarely fits under seats on public transport - it can be quite awkward in places.

I've also found it fairly tricky to lock. The narrow gaps between the spokes and the very small triangle in the frame make it hard to pass a serious lock through; I constantly worry about wrecking spokes when I try to lock it up. It lives indoors most of the time so it's not a serious drawback for me but might be something to think about based on your needs.

Overall I've been happy with the good riding, luggage options, and replacement parts story. A good option if the drawbacks don't really hold you back in your day-to-day usage.

Tern makes a BYB bike model that looks decent for transit (https://www.ternbicycles.com/us/bikes/471/byb). I personally own a Tern Verge and it's more enjoyable as a bike than my Brompton.

Citizen Bike (https://www.citizenbike.com/catalog.asp?product_category_id=...) has 20 inch wheels. Not ultra-compact, but the one I have is pretty good.

For anyone looking I found two manufacturers that make folding bikes with full size components and wheels:

Montague

Changebike

There is also a third that looks newer and I could not find any info on but looks promising from Finland:

Fubi

Bike Friday (20in wheels) and Airnimal (24in) are both superb and feel close to a normal bike to ride. There’s also the Tern and Dahon ranges.

My cousin designed and built a prototype of a folding trike that fit in a suitcase. He'd check it on a trip, and on arrival unfold it. Then mount its case on the back and put his normal suitcase in that. He could then tour around whereever independently with his luggage. Had a blast touring Costa Rica he said.

That is still Brompton money, and the seat position looks terrifying. For a cheap folding bike with gears, my Tern Link B7 was £400 a few year ago (£600 now) and has been all my London transport when I travel down alone. It's a lump (12kg) compared to a Brompton, but it feels very solid to ride and gets into a train luggage rack.

Looks interesting, but the claims are a bit questionable. The brake limiter is also very suspicious---"in the heat of the moment" is exactly when I don't want my brakes not working. Plus it's a proprietary drivetrain that I have no reason to have any confidence in its reliability.

It means that you can brake as hard as you like without danger of toppling over. The brakes work like abs on a car. We have customers that have already drove 7000km without any wear to the drivetrain.

Segway Ninebot Electric GoKart is not that much bigger, has a battery, and looks so much cooler.

https://www.amazon.com/Segway-Ninebot-White-GoKart-Bundle/dp...

People who liked this might also be interested in Halfbike (https://halfbikes.com), a standing bike which also is reasonably portable. I tried it once and while it does need some getting used to, I like the idea.

Never heard of that before now! That's beautiful. Thanks for the link.

Folding bikes are really cool but the small wheels mean you really feel any unevenness it the road.

I gotta have bigger wheels.

They’ve experimented from time to time with hubless wheels, which allow for a lot of flexibility in passing bits of the bike through the plane of the wheel when folded, but it’s never clear how they deal with shock - potholes in particular.

Spoked wheels have partial failure modes and those are important.

I wonder too if at these small dimensions you still want to copy the Brompton model, where a flick of the elbow practically assembles or disassembles the bike. Would a design that requires both wheels to be removed and reattached be more workable? Though removing rear wheels can be complicated greatly by the drivetrain.

Bromptons have quite significant compliance built into the frame, I was quite surprised at how smooth they ride compared to other folders.

The front wheel needs to be bigger I think. Not for comfort but for safety.

This makes me want to design one. Roughly, bigger front wheel, hard (no pneumatic) tyres. Suspension on the rear wheel; a low unsprung weight would make this effective.

It reduces the use case to short distances, not commute rides. But that's ok if it's small enough folded to be taken on a train/bus/taxi.

Couldn't someone make rollerblades that strap on like snow shoes? Seems like it would be the ultimate compact design. If you're already riding the tiniest folding bike in the world, I doubt the dork factor of blades would be significant.

You've just described those roller skates that they make for little kids that stap on to the shoe. I don't know if you've ever tried them, but they're mostly useful for making your kid think that roller skating is a horrenously impossible feat.

Have you used rollerblades or snowshoes? Showshoes have a very flexible binding system, and rollerblades need to be quite stiff in order to have a hope of functioning properly, and not snaping your ankle in several pieces. In order to make such a thing, you'd have to wear some sort of plastic boot, and then have some solid binding like a pin tech binding to attach the boot to the rollers.

I'm pretty skeptical about "effortlessly 25 km/h with the folding bike, without much pedaling". Other small-wheel folding bikes I've tried (of, I'm sure, much inferior quality) were not so efficient. Awesome if true.

Due to the moving saddle you use more muscle groups and because of the seating position there is much more pressure on the pedals. You use your weight much more with this bike than an ordinary bike where all the weight on the saddle.

they do have gears that help with that, I think. Can be seen in the promo videos from the side. Also, the riders are peddling very slow for the speed they are going.

Useful for a very brief stay, but in general I'd much rather rent a full-sized bike.

Everyone would. They are cheaper and better in every way other than the fact you cant bring one on public transport.

Yeah I was very into personal electric last mile transport for a while, but realized you can't beat the city bike rentals for convenience and 80/20 efficiency. If they're not available I just walk.

FTA: effortlessly 25 km/h with the folding bike, without much pedaling

25 km/hour is fairly fast for a regular ’upright’ bicycle, and certainly not obtained effortlessly. I don’t see that being better for this bicycle with its small wheels.

They have an entire page claiming that their bike is more efficient than a traditional bike:

https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/home-kwiggle-vorteile

I've never ridden one so I'm not in any position to judge it, but the position sounds similar to an elliptical bike.

And this is even more upright, aerodynamics doesn't like to get cheated no layer the size of the wheels. 25 km/h is close to the speed (not quite there, but almost) where people on particularly upright bikes start folding down their upper body to strike a deal with aerodynamics if they need to go faster.

On my standard mtn bike style bike it's just about bang on 27kph where I'm pretty much folded down to do much better. You can't cheat wind resistance.

Due to the swinging saddle you use more muscle groups in your body and there is also more pressure on the paddles.

> the Kwiggle weighs only 9 - 10 kg and can be carried comfortably... with one hand

I don't know why you'd want to actually carry it around, but surely nobody is 'comfortable' wandering around with 10kg in one hand?!

~22 lbs probably shouldn’t be causing you ‘discomfort’ as long as there’s a decent handle or way to hold on to the thing…

> why you'd want to actually carry it around

To get on trains and buses, or to walk up a flight of stairs, ... Why would you get a folding bike if you have no need to ever carry it?

What's really practical about th Strida is that it uses a belt instead of a chain and keeps the brakelines internal. So it has very little to rust and folds in 20 seconds.

The Kwiggle is made of stainless steel and aluminium nothing to rust. Have a look here for how quickly you fold the Kwiggle: https://youtube.com/shorts/9kmqY4RpZ6Q?feature=share

What’s so special about it? It looks like any other folding bike

The seat is attached to the front column, not to the bottom bracket like on most other bikes (folding or not). This seems to give them a better portability return for sacrificing wheel base than other designs. So that's what they did, apparently: the side views look like on the brink of a wheelie from even the slightest acceleration or incline, all while not getting the CoG all too far from stoppie tipovers. The advertised 25 km/h will feel maddeningly fast.

Have a look here https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/faltrad-vs-rennrad-am-berg

> The advertised 25 km/h will feel maddeningly fast.

Fortunately 45 degree descents and tailwinds don't coincide that frequently.

It is much more stable than it looks :-)

The Kwiggle is the most compact folding bike in the world and introduces a new way of riding a bike due to the moving saddle. This allows for more pressure on the pedals and thus more efficiency.

I was mentally prepared for a steep price because of all the "Made in Germany" copy, but it still surprised me when I finally found it.

1700 Euro not counting tax doesn't look like affordable TBH...I'm thinking something around 500 bucks at most.

Looks like it would tip forward if you needed to brake fast but cool to see a new type of foldable bike.

Nice one, base model with 1-speed costs 1340€ (+50€ shipping for EU) and rider can be up to 100kg.

100kg is total weight. ~10kg is the bike alone, so 90kg is max for rider+luggage (backpack etc)

That is not correct. The rider can be up to 100kg.

I'm interested in folding bikes. This is a great device if you can afford the price tag $1300+ there is also the a bike. http://a-bike.co.uk/product-category/bikes/

The difference between the A-Bike and the Kwiggle is: With an A-Bike you can make max 12-15 km/h, with a Kwiggle you will ride at relaxed 25 km/h and can do even much more.

"Precision German engineering!"

Isn’t it a scooter that you pedal?

On a scooter you stand still. On the Kwiggle, you move in natural upright position. We think upright movement is better than standing still. I am the owner of Kwiggle.

Max weight 220lbs. Oh well.

is the dude in the video deliberately doing 90 mph?

It is very easy to ride fast on the Kwiggle.

Gonna stick with my Brompton.

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