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Comment by muzani | Hacker News Reader

Be warned that people are reciprocal. I had a business partner who would negotiate everything. We found that luck would turn against us. There would suddenly be added processes and bureaucracy. Partners backed out on verbal promises. People were turning down job offers or sleeping on the job. A banner we bought didn't include the banner stand because it wasn't "included in the price".

If you're generous to others, they may be generous to you. If you're cheap with others, they will definitely be cheap with you.

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A hundred times this.

A guy I worked with figured out that you can negotiate everything, and did. He'd get pissed off at the bank charging him an overdraft fee and sit in the telephone queue to get his £20 back.

He took a cab on a business trip to Dubai, and the cabbie kept the meter going while filling up. He argued it and got the equivalent of 50p off.

He'd negotiate agreements with brokers and negotiate absolutely everything.

He pushed really hard on the partnership agreement.

In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.

Negotiating takes time. Time is money...

Well, the cabbie leaving the meter running while filling up is more standing up for yourself and not being taken advantage of. That's a task that should have taken place before picking up a fare (that they wouldn't normally be compensated for that time).

Absolutely everything can be construed as "I can't let you screw me".

This is what made it toxic.

Pick your battles.

Depends on the perspective. I think a reasonable person would expect not to be charged for a stop that was in the control of the driver.

Most haggling/negotiating being discussed here isn't about getting screwed with an unexpected fee, but about getting a better price before purchasing a service/item. This would be an unexpected fee if the driver didn't disclose this.

No - a “reasonable” person wouldn’t be haggling over 50p because the driver stopped to get gas. I’ve never seen anyone - couldn’t even imagine it before I read this - reverse charging a driver because they stopped for gas on the way. Those are the kind of people the OP is talking about - what they’re doing is “technically” just standing up for their rights etc. But this person sounds extremely toxic to be around

Like in their example, 50p of cab meter charges is not much - I’m happy to have the cabbie keep it.

That's not much and many people might allow it. It's more about it being a surprise fee and delay.

Stopping for gas is a 50p “surprise fee” now :-D nice. And filling up the tank takes what - a couple mins? Smh

Did you have a point, or are you just violating HN policy?

My dude, I’m saying calling 50p a “surprise fee” is quite a stretch, and a couple minutes to fill up a tank isn’t a “delay”. What policy are you talking about - that I disagree with your summation? Didn’t know that was against the rules.

While technically true, I never mind such things.

Those cabbies are working-class people usually. They often have families, and need the extra money. All they get is usually a few extra dollars; which means a lot to them, but very little to us middle-class people, who would suffer no repercussions financially.

One could see the running meter as a form of a 'tip' or 'donation' - not everything has to be seen in the context of "being taken advantage of", which makes it very hard to live.

This is very different from surprise fees from banks and institutions, for which I can see how a person might feel taken advantage of.

Tips and donations are voluntary.

> One could see the running meter as a form of a 'tip' or 'donation'

Those ones piss me off the most, in this way you are rewarding cabs who do this and kind of penalizing the ones that don't. In that moment, I am doing 180 and no way I am going to give that person even a penny more than necessary.

Why would you tip someone who is doing the wrong thing by you? I know Americans have a broken viewpoint on this, but most of the world tip for good service. You're suggesting tipping for the opposite.

The worst example of this I ever encountered was people who would try to haggle with me when I worked at Staples.

Like dude I was a floor associate, not anywhere near someone who could change prices as listed.

Then, after multiple rounds of me insisting that the price was the price, my manager would come along and go "sure, we can give you a discount on that" and I look like a clown.

> In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.

this. i've been turned off by people when i've seen them push crazy contracts and generally have always believed that mutually beneficial relationships are based on both parties looking out for each other's best interests.

you should never have to haggle over money in any serious deal, having to do so is what they call a "big giant glowing red flag."

Would you maintain this perspective in a corporate setting when negotiating a raise with an employer?

yes, i don't want to have to "negotiate" raises. that is a waste of time and energy that is better spent finding an employer that will just handle it professionally.

You are definitely not getting paid enough.

Bank fees is absolutely something you can and should negotiate about. Late with a payment a day or two? Charged a fee? Call you bank, apologize and humbly ask for a fee to be waived. If you're a client in good standing, they're very likely to remove the fee. You just have to ask. Of course, if you abuse it, they can refuse, so do not ruin it.

Yup - I remember a customer who boasted how he always negotiated, and I didn't see the warning signs until it came time to pay my invoice!

We have a few customers like that - there's a column in the quote document with customer-specific adders.

There are a few that are somewhat innoccuous: New customer risk surcharge, automotive customer process hurdles surcharge, foreign customer customs surcharge...

But then there are the "5% surcharge to be removed later as a 'discount'", "Customer X 10% surcharge for extra negotiation and concepting rounds", and "Customer Y 25% surcharge for expected late payment hassles", and "Customer Z 33% surcharge for extra detail in the quote, additional project management, and expected scope bulldozing." They may feel they've 'won', but their extra work was priced in from the start...

I did this when I was webdev freelancer. I was doubling my price. Requesting half upfront then if the customer was well behaved and the project didn't have too much of unanticipated scope creep I gave generous discount in the end.

That gave me some well paying, well behaving, happy returning customers.

There are whole sitcoms devoted to this (idea of negotiating every price), at least 25 years aged.

And yeah in my experience being generous almost always produces discounts for everyone. I’m not gonna post it but my take is: did you know that workers generally know they’re not spending their own money, but enjoying as much of their leeway as possible with money they’ll never ever get paid on the job?

Tip your waitstaff and bartenders and basically everyone who will accept a tip y’all.

Negotiation is the inverse of tipping.

An anecdote from 48 Laws of Power:

Akimoto Suzutomo, a wealthy adherent of the tea ceremony, once gave his page 100 ryo (gold pieces) and instructed him to purchase a tea bowl offered by a particular dealer. When the page saw the bowl, he doubted it was worth that much, and after much bargaining got the price reduced to 95 ryo. Days later, after Suzutomo had put the bowl to use, the page proudly told him what he had done. “What an ignoramus you are!” replied Suzutomo. “A tea bowl that anyone asks 100 pieces of gold for can only be a family heirloom, and a thing like that is only sold when the family is pressed for money. And in that case they will be hoping to find someone who will give even 150 pieces for it. So what sort of fellow is it who does not consider their feelings? Quite apart from that, a curio that you give 100 ryo for is something worth having, but one that has only cost 95 gives a mean impression. So never let me see that tea bowl again!” And he had the bowl locked away, and never took it out.

I don't really understand the story. the guy is trying to pay 100 for something he suspects a struggling family hopes to sell for 150, and he's mad that the page haggled off an additional 5?

Yes.

Turns out that commercial transactions happen in a social context, and even when it doesn't come back to bite you financially, sometimes paying less has social costs that are far higher than what you "saved".

right, I understand from thread context the conclusion I am supposed to draw. what I don't understand is the internal logic of the story. the guy is described as wealthy, and apparently is already taking advantage of a struggling family by offering 100 when he suspects they are hoping for 150. I'm inferring that anything in the 100s range of this currency is trivial to him. so why the outrage over the last 5 rather than the first 50?

It's not about the money, it's about honor, and what different amounts mean to other people.

The seller is presumably an aristocratic family fallen into hard times. They are selling a presumably rare and famous item. The buyer's agent haggled over the item instead of just stating a flat price they were willing to pay.

If the buyer displays the item, then elite of Feudal Japan will say "Poor so and so, they got taken advantaged of by a merciless nouveau riche. Make sure not to invite that person to our upper class parties. We may be poor compared to them; but we still have our samurai pride."

Edited for spelling.

To note, honor meant a lot more during the samurai era. Someone who is not compassionate either comes across as manipulative or not alert to their surroundings. Manipulative people were bad allies. Inattention is a form of weakness. Dishonor wasn't just not being invited to parties, it could well mean death.

It was an act of calculated generosity - buying something that wasn't really worth that much. But you can't negotiate and look generous at the same time. 5 ryo transformed the context from helping out a poor family to taking advantage of someone's poverty.

In this case, the listed price is the floor price, even though the seller agreed to less in the end. The expected price was unlisted.

With tipping, the floor price is actually higher than the listed price. Someone might agree to sell at a lower price, but below that floor price, it brings great dishonor.

Additionally, paying a price of 100 means the payer does not _really_ care about the price, they just say "here's an expensive item that I totally can afford to buy, and don't care how much does it cost, let's just make it an arbitrary 100". Paying 95, however, means "I know _exactly_ how much it costs, and I am willing to spend my attention on haggling for the extra 5 (even if it's done by a servant, it still reflects on the owner), which means 5 is a substantial enough sum for me to care, which means I'm not as rich as I pretend to be".

For me the problem is: every time I drink tea from this bowl I'll be reminded that I took away 5 coins from a struggeling family. I rather pay 150 and for the rest of my life am rimended how I genrously helped a stuggeling family.

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