1) big capitalists within Germany and abroad funded and supported Hitler
2) capitalist countries rejected repeated requests from the USSR to form an anti-fascist alliance before WWII
of course, big capitals funded the leader of Germany that by creating a giant war machine, was filling their pockets with bags of money.
> 2) capitalist countries rejected repeated requests from the USSR to form an anti-fascist alliance before WWII
But also Stalin provided substantial support to the nazis, until 1941...
I'm not saying you are wrong, but cherry picking facts doesn't magically become history.
From recent web resources I suggest:
- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th...
- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/23/uks-propaganda...
- https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/31/louis-de-berni...
- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-...
Just to pick the first I've read recently. The history not cherry-picked say a thing: when nazism and fascism born their idea was common in all western countries from their élites to some not-so-small cohort of their populations. Just like today's populism.
BTW, yes Stalin (one who took money from UK Crown, with the excuse of reliefs for Ukraine famine, via some formal "NGOs" ante-litteram) have signed an agreement with the nazi, but only after he understand that the western countries will never be partners. And future development have proved he have had good points, just read about "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot"...
That's a well know fact.
It is also a well know fact that USA went to the Moon thanks to a nazi high ranking member, Wernher Von Braun.
Of course the west was aligned with the "WASP" west and not with the "commie" Russia, just like today: we side with Ukraine and not with Putin's Russia mainly because we wanna keep the western propaganda on "democracy and freedom and the best lifestyle ever" alive and kicking, not because we really believe that we share the same values in the end.
And because if we don't, the World will say that we're helping Putin.
Same thing happened in 1939, but reversed.
Everyone was afraid of being infected by the "communist revolution", not only the politicians, but the public opinion too!
It was a people's choice too, that lasted 70 years and still nowadays you can hear people saying that "x is bad because it's chinese and chinese are communists, so they must be bad!".
It's the tragedy of tribalism: us and them, good vs evil, that kind of propaganda that we still endure today!
> have signed an agreement with the nazi, but only after he understand that the western countries will never be partners.
I love Stalin's mustache like everybody else, but history is history: Stalin actually helped the nazis, they didn't simply sign an agreement, with that pact they encouraged Hitler to invade Poland, since there was no more opposition on the east: Germany took the most of it, Stalin invaded the eastern part.
Also they gave ton of raw materials to Germany, for example they contributed a lot to "Operation Barbarossa".
Yes, history is history: stalin was a dictator, probably the murderer of Lenin (witch was a dictator too, but at least with far less blood in his hands) BUT stalin help the nazi only to protect Soviet Union, because he know he can't sustain a war having just emerged from a nth turn of civil wars AND he understand the the rest of the west will not help him. He first propose to stop hitler but UK say "no, just wait, he only invade a bit of nearby countries for good reasons", they keep waiting, they send diplomats without any decision power to Russia etc. hitler on contrary have sent a plenipotentiary and sign a clear agreement. That's is.
Just like today China: Russian was no friends of Germans like we are no friends of China but we need a reliable partner, at that time the nazi was ones, these days China is one.
Oh, BTW the propaganda stating Russian bear rape a democratic country can't be swallowed by anyone who just read news: we all know that Ukrainian gov was as "democratic" as Xi or Putin and is a puppet regime planted by the west, the west who actually have financed, formed and armed local nazis to keep up the eastward expansion of NATO keeping the EU away from a partnership with Russia. At that point for us EU Citizens our own government are responsible for high treason just because they made choices for USA and UK interests against our own interests and they have financed and armed as well nazis, witch is a crime in most EU after WWII...
There is no tribalism, it's just a game of interest, BUT one thing is the interest of their own country another is the interest of a foreign one.
At least he fought them and won.
What excuses have French for Vichy "Republic"?
> the west who actually have financed, formed and armed local nazis to keep up the eastward expansion of NATO
I've never been in favor of the expansion to the east of EU, imagine what I think of NATO expansion...
And not because I don't like people from east Europe, but because we all know too well what happens when you finance "freedom fighters" against your enemy: they become the Saddam Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the contras and the Talibans.
We should stop it.
No "excuse", Philippe Pétain have simply understood that war for France was lost and he choose the Germans because they were less oppressive than the Brits the France gov. choose. Actually at first he was right. He imagin Germans from WWI not nazis, of course, but history tell a thing: German nazis was no more "nazi" than neoliberals who win them. Oh and I say that from a socialist point of view, read that last sentence three time.
A thing I learn from the history is that some regimes start with good ideas, but they end very badly, some other prefer "less good" ideas and sometimes they land less badly. What I still miss is how Democracy can born. And that's a big issue for me...
What? Putin assassinates and jails many of his critics and journalists, holds fraudulent elections, maintains strict control of the press in peacetime, places barriers to protest that in effect make it difficult to impossible, and has no respect for term limits. He's an autocrat turning into a despot. How in any way does that compare to Ukraine? Ukraine's leader wasn't that popular until the invasion but he still won an election in a landslide.
At least putin have killed single individuals who are against him, nothing new under the Sun, but so far he do not commit any genocide against it's own people. So fat he finance some nazis, and mercenaries of similar kind (Wagner), but fur less than NATO-armed, trained and financed Azov, Pravy Sektor, C14 et al. and for the mercenaries nothing different than Blackwater and co.
In purely political criminality terms putin is a criminal like Biden, Trump or Jonson, with a difference: so far he have killed FAR less then them around the world. Try to be honest, looking at raw news behind propaganda.
The 2014 revolution (not coup in the classic sense) followed by the recent non-rigged (unlike in Russia) democratic election in which the current leader was elected in a landslide of popular support.
> commit a slow genocide on it's own Russian-speaking part of population, around 30% or so
Source? I am aware of one warcrime most likely committed by Ukraine-aligned troops (potentially Azov) in the Donbas that were pointed out by Human Rights Watch. They killed like 15 civilians in criminal shelling. Haven't seen evidence that would amount towards the claim of genocide, which is a high bar.
> Just now they decide to ban all other parties
That's false. They didn't ban all other parties. They banned 11 minority parties that constituted about 10% of the seats which had ties to the country that is currently invading them. Some far-right ones (which get like 2% of the vote) and mostly far-left ones. If Russia hadn't invaded, guess what, this wouldn't have happened.
> force all broadcasts to spread just government propaganda.
You mean forced to spread government information? That's correct. They are being invaded by Russia and so they invoked these kind of martial law measures which would be concerning in any other context. The root cause of martial law in Ukraine is the Russian invasion. If you have a problem with martial law in Ukraine, then blame the country that is invading Ukraine.
> At least putin have killed single individuals who are against him, nothing new under the Sun
Actually, it's not normal to kill domestic political opponents and journalists.
> So fat he finance some nazis, and mercenaries of similar kind (Wagner), but fur less than NATO-armed, trained and financed Azov, Pravy Sektor, C14 et al. and for the mercenaries nothing different than Blackwater and co.
The head of Wagner is an actual Nazi, with SS tattoos on his neck. Putin sent this literal Nazi's henchmen into Ukraine under the guise of 'denazification'.
I will admit that the Nazis in Azov are a huge problem, but if you were a small country that had to defend against Russian aggression, you can't afford to pick and choose who's going to help defend your country. Empirical proof: Azov is proving hugely useful in delaying the Russian invasion in Mariupol. If they have kicked Azov out, Mariupol may have already fallen. Again - the root problem here is Russian aggression. If Russia wasn't a threat, they wouldn't have to resort to desperate measures like this. If you don't like Azov, then blame Russia, because without Russia, Ukraine wouldn't have any need of Azov.
> In purely political criminality terms putin is a criminal like Biden, Trump or Jonson
No. Biden et al are not ultranationalist despots who murder their political opponents, rig elections, ban free speech, and invade democracies.
I'm sorry, but I know few Ukrainians, certainly not enough to compute statistics but enough to have some local insights, 2014 "revolution" was a coup, pushed by NATO and you can find few infos in our press btw [1], interesting the SOLE "democratic" in the sense that NO ONE in the world, USA included, state otherwise was the original referendum to separate DPR and LPR from Ukraine witch al the west say "the vote is invalid because Ukraine constitution do not support secession" but NO ONE say was rigged and 90+% votes for being a new Republic.
> Source? I am aware of one warcrime most likely committed by Ukraine-aligned troops (potentially Azov) in the Donbas that were pointed out by Human Rights Watch.
Just read about the aforementioned coup: did you think some Russians decide a day in 2014 to indict a referendum just to do something in the afternoon?
Of course western resources are scarce, but something is easy to find
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-00369...
https://khpg.org/en/1540419843
https://www.ofpra.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/atoms/files/18...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27173857
https://www.news18.com/news/world/azov-battalion-accused-of-...
https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defendin...
> That's false. They didn't ban all other parties. They banned 11 minority parties
So "minor" that they represent around the totality of non-nazi parties... Curiously mostly on the left (you might not know but putin in Russia is considered from the right, the left oppose it, far more than some local nazis depicted as heroes in the west like Navalny...
> You mean forced to spread government information?
Surely government call that information, others call that narrative... Do remember that ALL dictators do not say they are dictators...
> The head of Wagner is an actual Nazi, with SS tattoos on his neck.
No doubt, and I'm pretty sure it's colleagues from Blackwater have similar tattoos...
> No. Biden et al are not ultranationalist despots who murder their political opponents, rig elections, ban free speech, and invade democracies.
Surely not, they are just criminals against humanity who push for various war crimes (do you remember Biden position about Belgrade bombing? About Iraq war, based on officially recognized lies?) and others crimes... Actually they have indirectly murdered probably far more people than putin. On banning free speech... Did you see our media? With some PRIVATE COMPANIES that ban peoples who say "non aligned" statements including for instance a facebook ban to the British Medical Journal "for covid misinformation"? The direct ban to Russian's media "they are source of fake news" etc? That's have a name: censorship. In free countries even media who push fake news have the right to do so. In the west apparently the actual censorship is not much different than the Chinese one and do not only happen at State level but also at private companies levels. On invasions... Iraq? Afganistan? FORMALLY invaded laying to our people? Libya? Syria? Somalia? Just to name few recent, but you can go in the recent past like Guatemala coup led by Eduard Bernays propaganda campain for the United Fruit co and the USA army, or the Chilean coup to evict Allende placing a recognized criminal dictator (Pinochet)? Do you want to keep going in the recent history?
Any country have a bloody story, that's nothing new: Russia itself have crushed countless of small States during their history, but if we summarize the history the most violent talk in English, Belgian, Dutch, Spain follow, Portugal and Spain follow, Russia and China follow.
But just see the recent USA politics: most say that Trump and Biden are completely different governments, now try to study their acts, they have done the same things. Of course, the public face is FAR different, the narrative is far different but the substance?
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2014/04/16/why-cia-...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia...
https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go...
https://multipolarista.com/2022/03/18/cia-trained-ukrainians...
You've provided no evidence for this. Either provide some evidence, or stop calling it a coup. Your [1] is about the US providing support to Ukraine against a Russian invasion after the revolution.
EDIT: I just saw you posted more than one link, sorry about that. I was already aware of Nuland's leaked call where they're talking about who they want to replace Yanukovych. So? Of course they're going to have such a discussion in the middle of a revolution where someone is about to be ousted and they have relationships with existing people. Regarding the comments of the Estonian FM. Not close to evidence of a coup, or even suggestive. What would Estonia know of a covert CIA plot? This was just that person's opinion. Nobody knew about the Iranian coup outside of the US and Britain, for example. These things are kept under wraps. If Germany's FM was found to have said "it's not a coup", would this journalist have written about it? No.
> original referendum to separate DPR and LPR from Ukraine witch al the west say "the vote is invalid because Ukraine constitution do not support secession" but NO ONE say was rigged and 90+% votes for being a new Republic.
Actually there are allegations that it was rigged, not to mention the unconstitutional part.
> Of course western resources are scarce, but something is easy to find
Thank you for these resources. These are very concerning and disgusting people/actions. But it isn't genocide (that's a fairly high bar) and it isn't evidence of neo-nazism in Ukrainian leadership. As I said, Russia has a much bigger neo-fascism problem than Ukraine does. Both in general society (according to polls) and the fact that Putin himself is a literal fascist.
> So "minor" that they represent around the totality of non-nazi parties
This is yet another false statement on this topic. You're implying here that 90% of the seats are held by neo-Nazis, which is ridiculous. You also ignore the fact that some far-right parties were banned. And you ignore the fact that the root cause is Putin's invasion.
> No doubt, and I'm pretty sure it's colleagues from Blackwater have similar tattoos...
So you admit that Putin is sending in neo-Nazis to 'denazify' Ukraine.
> Surely not, they are just criminals against humanity who push for various war crimes (do you remember Biden position about Belgrade bombing? About Iraq war, based on officially recognized lies?)
You discredit yourself by thinking that Iraq is equivalent to Ukraine. Iraq was heinous, but invading in order to depose a totalitarian and cruel and widely hated dictator is not the same thing as invading to destroy a democracy, impose dictatorship, and intentionally shell civilians in near-genocidal fashion. You won't find a defender of Iraq in me, but it's a deeply misguided comparison and part of Russia's propaganda. Anyway; the history of US imperialism is fairly irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and Russia and what's happening now.
> With some PRIVATE COMPANIES that ban peoples who say "non aligned" statements
Why are you trying to compare a despot who jails or kills people for saying the wrong thing with private companies censoring stuff. In Russia, people go to jail. In the US, people go to rumble.com. Big difference. Anyway, it's irrelevant.
> Any country have a bloody story, that's nothing new
Am I defending bloody empires from 100 years ago? No. It's irrelevant. Don't bring it up. We are talking about Ukraine and Russia. Russia is an expansionist fascist dictatorship in the year 2022. I am not talking about Nazi Germany in 1940 or the British Empire before that.
It's a coup by definition. According to the Oxford dictionary:
> coup: a sudden, illegal, and often violent change of government
Maybe it wasn't sudden (if we consider the protests lasted several months), but it was definitely violent and illegal. I don't think I have to provide evidence of the violence. As for the "illegal" part: the government was democratically elected (so it was "legal"), and the vote in the parliament to depose Yanukovich was uncostitutional, as it required a 3/4 majority (338 votes) and only 328 people voted in favor.
So you fail to provide evidence of the inverse, failing to ask why at a certain point in time Euromaidan protests arise, why they arrive at the famous referendum, who have created before the so called orange (2.0) revolution of the now-forgotten Yulia Tymoshenko and her curious links to similar movement in Georgia, South Ossetia etc curiously following the same "social (networks) pattern (and networks)" of the so called "Arab springs", those results where new dictatorship replacing others, others originally placed by NATO but then grow strong enough to start looking for independencies and third party alliance... Oh but sure Iraq war was not due to the Saddam choice of selling petrol in euros instead of dollars, Libya was not done by France because Gaddafi drawn a path to substitute the CFA (French controlled money mostly used for commerce in large part of Africa) with a local fiat money etc etc etc
Actually colonialism is never ended and we are not born today "in a totally different and completely unconnected from the past manner", history is history so you find various kind of evidence, what's up till now is less easy because there are many interests to avoid publishing of evidences, especially in clear terms for the masses.
> Actually there are allegations that it was rigged, not to mention the unconstitutional part.
Do you have evidence? BTW the "unconstitutional part" it's a classic joke because no Constitution provides for secession, obviously BUT international chat of human right provide the self-determination right and you probably know the history of Ukraine, of the eastern part in particular passed from Russian oblast (subdivision) to Ukrainian oblast as an administrative act all inside the Soviet Union as a mere reorganization. So you might know that actually east Ukrainian are Russians, changed to Soviet citizenship with the II October revolution and than changed to Ukrainian after the URSS collapse, without having changed their language (still Russian, not Ukrainian) nor their alphabet (both language use a Cyrillic alphabet but with a small set of different letters, not much far from the difference between Greek's Cyrillic and Russian's one).
Now you should know the NATO eastward expansion violating post-WWII Yalta agreements from day zero and the obvious series of semi and practical coup NATO orchestrate in eastern Europe to grab a strong power in the region. That's "past" of course, a past still present.
> Thank you for these resources. These are very concerning and disgusting people/actions. But it isn't genocide
Nazi's does not born with mass extermination camps, it took time to build such machines, Ukrainian nazi's are "young" and far less resourceful than original German's one. They have already done the same Turkey have done on Armenians, it's only a matter of time and that's why I call it a Genocide: it's a clear path to it, ongoing.
> This is yet another false statement on this topic. You're implying here that 90% of the seats are held by neo-Nazis
You know well that in modern formal, not substantial, "democracies" few steer the masses, with various legislative and propaganda artifice a small minority rule on the rest. Actually the neo-nazis are a minority, of course, but they rule. Not much differently than Italian or French government that represent probably less than 20% of their Citizens but rule on them all.
> So you admit that Putin is sending in neo-Nazis to 'denazify' Ukraine.
That's nothing to admit: putin is a dictator, but that fact does not imply it's enemy is something different, the the blackbird is black like the crow, that's is.
> You discredit yourself by thinking that Iraq is equivalent to Ukraine. Iraq was heinous, but invading in order to depose a totalitarian and cruel and widely hated dictator is not the same thing as invading to destroy a democracy
Again you look at a mirror: Iraq was definitively not invaded to depose a dictator, USA rulers love dictatorial regimes and have planted plenty of them around the world to steal natural resources or for political reasons. The reasons behind Iraq invasion with the LIE of mass destruction weapons, genocide etc was the fact that Saddam look for erase dollar dominance, the same thing that actually happen but at a scale USA can't react with force because they can face Iraq but they can't face Russia, China, Iran, India etc. USA and UK are so-called ruled by a talax-centered clepto-corporatocracy, they need to dominate the seas to remain alive, they need third parties resources to remain alive avoiding a domestic coup of their Citizens against their domestic oppressors. At a certain point in time after WWII the rest of the world have started saying stop. They do the usual business: undermine the opponent, repress them etc. For little targets "they succeed" to a small extent (Chile, Guatemala, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc) but fails on larger target (like Iran itself), they need western Europe technology to remain in power: USA and UK school system is highly ranked in propaganda terms but in reality it need people have studied in other, really effective, systems and pay them well. USA aviation was built by Germans, IT revolution was born out of western Europeans and Japaneses etc, well paid, well welcomed etc. Nowadays that system does not work anymore, USA are attractive for Indians for instance, but not anymore for Europeans or Japaneses etc and Indian school system is not equally effective. Europe is still the center of the world and have started to came back to power with a rapprochement to Russia (witch is actually Europe, geographically, till the Urals). So they need to stop such move. The other big geopolitical threat is the need for China to grab south America resources just to nourish is citizens and industries. Europe is the first, most urgent need, China the second one. But they know their dominance is about to fail since decades: https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Global%20Trends_Mapping%... so the tentative was the Great Reset generated by the Green New Deal, designing a new world to rebuild the table. A world designed as the USA and the UK neoliberals have designed their own countries.
That's is and the main issue for us "westerns" is that that's not OUR interest, actually is against our interests, it the interest of our dictatorship witch are no better than Russian, Iranian or Chinese regimes, just different because they are born out of different populations and so histories. Between the '800 and '900 many cohort of population have understood that and they unite and revolt, 30+years of war in '800, two world war in the '900 almost wipe out those revolts but not entirely, now it's just the suite.
> Why are you trying to compare a despot who jails or kills people for saying the wrong thing with private companies censoring stuff. In Russia, people go to jail. In the US, people go to rumble.com. Big difference. Anyway, it's irrelevant.
Because such difference does not really exists if not marginal. In Russia I know few guys and so I hear what's up from local sources: there is in reality not much more repression than here, it have slightly different forms, but it's not really different. Our regimes do kill and jail when they need it (did you remember Assange, just to cite one?) but having a better propaganda they need a bit less. Our propaganda talk about incidents in those cases, while rightly talk about homicide for the other side. So they do in Russia. Actually I prefer formal state killing because that means Citizens know your enemy clearly. Our "soft" version is more effective against Citizens because having no uniforms, no formal doctrine the actual regime is stronger: it's hard to find who you do not know.
> Am I defending bloody empires from 100 years ago? No. It's irrelevant.
It's not because we are here due to the history, and the history change things, but remain the same across millennials.