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Comment by Tretiotrr | Hacker News Reader

In Germany you study for free.

There was a video (perhaps even from kurzgesagt) which describes how critical it is for our society to allow as many people as easy access to knowledge as possible and not only for obvious reasons but also to increase the chance for all of us that the hidden genius is finding a cure for cancer.

You can even study for free in Germany as an non German. You know what happens? Those people might stay in Germany and make Germany a better country.

Imagine a world were we compete globally with the best education system. Let's allow more people to shape our future.

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What do you think about German kids being sent to different kinds of highschools at age 10.

Most of the people attending Hauptschule don't attend university [0]. In some regions 60% of the children attend it. Aren't you concerned that the person who could discover the cure for cancer is in Hauptschule right now?

Imagine a Germany in which the rest of your life isn't determined at age ten.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptschule

Germany has three “tiers” of secondary education, of which only finishing the highest will qualify you for university admission. The rationale is that not everybody benefits from learning latin or higher mathematics, when instead a focus on more trade-related skills might benefit you much more in your further career. For late-bloomers, which might suffer under this system, it is still possible to progress from Hauptschule to Realschule and finally Gymnasium and university, without significant financial means necessary (besides cost of living).

Also, the average attendance for Hauptschule is <10% [1]. Wouldn’t you agree that at least 10% of kids would benefit from having an education experience more tailored to their needs instead of building resentment for education by being forced to sit through terribly boring lessons with the nerds knowing the answer for everything?

[1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulsystem_in_Deutschland#Sch...

> For late-bloomers, which might suffer under this system, it is still possible to progress from Hauptschule to Realschule and finally Gymnasium and university

Do you know how many people in Hauptschule make it to university?

> Also, the average attendance for Hauptschule is <10% [1].

I must acknowledge I thought it was 25%, it must've changed in recent years.

> Wouldn’t you agree that at least 10% ...

Thank you for the question. I buy the thesis of the Case against education by which university is a waste of time for most people, nevertheless it's hard for me to stigmatize a percentage of the population by not allowing them to waste their time there as well with their former ten year old smarter classmates.

Everyone can go to FOS or the BOS to get further educated.

I went to Realschule, made a 3 year apprenticeship as a software engineer and went for 2 further years to bos.

I'm now able to study.

In Germany no way would have i have been allowed to go to college. As it was I went to a California State University. Student fees and books cost me about $12k total. Given that there isn't any reason US colleges can't be free other than Wall Street demanding a cut.

>In Germany no way would have i have been allowed to go to college.

Why do you think that? Genuinely curious.

In fact Uğur Şahin CEO of BioNTech and co-inventor of the Pfizer-BioNTech mRNA vaccine was recommended by his teacher to attend a hauptschule. If his German neighbor hadn't intervened and stood up for him he may have never attended university let alone get a doctorate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uğur_Şahin

Sounds like the system worked in that case? As in it adjusted to new information that it was missing. This is not the case in the US.

> Imagine a Germany in which the rest of your life isn't determined at age ten

What you imply here is entierly untrue. I know lots of people that made their Abitur after having been to the Haupt- or Realschule first. That is not to say that the school system doesn't have its problems -- it clearly has -- but you are painting a picture that is not rooted in reality.

I think the argument would be better if Germany was some sort of education haven. My cousin fosters study abroad kids in the US and most are German. They say the German education isn’t anything to tout and having an American education on your CV is a big +. I’m not saying this whole thing is perfect but I just don’t see anyone banging down the doors for a German education.

> They say the German education isn’t anything to tout and having an American education on your CV is a big +.

Having lived in Europe for 30+ years, I have never heard of this outside higher education at very famous institutions, e.g. Stanford, Harvard, MIT.

In fact, primary and secondary schools in the US are usually seen as quite insufficient.

Where in Europe? I’ve hired in both Portugal and Germany and have seen a ton of US education. This is for developer positions I would expect it different if you are hiring line cooks.

I don’t quite understand where you are going with this. Have you hired US nationals, or US educated people? Either way, I haven’t seen many US educated people in Europe, and especially in Portugal.

> This is for developer positions I would expect it different if you are hiring line cooks.

I’m a lead engineer myself.

Again, I yet have to find anyone in Europe who would have primary and secondary education in the US in high consideration. In fact, after traveling in Asia, I had somewhat the same experience: top US universities were highly valued, but anything below that was mostly dismissed.

For both places I was simply filling roles. I think maybe 80% local and 20% us nationals? Maybe 90/10? Probably 50% had US educations listed. Maybe 40%? But it’s not like I didn’t see any. I’m not sure what you think is surprising. US people study abroad too. It’s very common and tech people tend to pick US because it’s heavy in tech.

> Probably 50% had US educations listed. Maybe 40%?

That is an extremely large percentage if the candidate pool was chosen at random. That would be surprising in Europe.

Anyway, I didn’t say it was surprising, but it is rare.

> US people study abroad too. It’s very common and tech people tend to pick US because it’s heavy in tech.

Sure. But there is a difference between hiring US nationals abroad, who likely would be US educated, and US educated Portuguese or German nationals, who are a very small minority of the population, and that’s what I was asking.

We joke that the us learning system is only 4 answers away due to the thing with multiple choice.

I have no clue if your education system is better or ours.

It's just that we think multiple choice tests are easier than free form.

most of the people I know, who do this kind of "study abroad" in highschool (which to my understanding is on average well below Abitur/A-levels) have their parents paying (quite a bit) for the privilege^. From what I've seen around, most of this activity is centered also around private "pay-to-your-A-levels"-schools. Notably these people might think of + on their CV (while being stupid).

^And then our public school had some funded, hidden exchange with Geelong Grammar school :)

Exactly my point. From my experience hiring in tech Europeans are very quick to mention US education believing it’s a big advantage.

Personally at that role it was an English role so I only took from their US education that they can function in an English environment. I didn’t give two shits about their Carnegie Mellon masters.

If they made college free in America it would be severely underfunded and suffer all the same problems as American high school.

If there is no money in something, then it's assumed there is no value. It's the American way.

> If they made college free in America it would be severely underfunded and suffer all the same problems as American high school.

You would only get those same problems if you made college mandatory, as well as free.

A real commitment to a policy of free tertiary education would also expand the availability of trade schools not just universities.

>A real commitment to a policy of free tertiary education would also expand the availability of trade schools not just universities.

This is part of the proposal of progressives. They always emphasized the freedom for a student to choose between trade school or community college, and then move on to a public 4 year school if they chose to do so.

No, it would be extraordinarily funded, but the money would not go to the students. NYC now spends over $30k per year, per student https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-ny-school-spendi...

Public education in the US is the most well-funded per student you can find anywhere. Yet somehow it doesn't translate into top-tier teachers nor top-tier outcomes. It's almost like giving huge amounts of money to unaccountable bureaucrats doesn't solve problems.

Cool, I got a 2.3 GPA in highschool and college but would love to try again. Where should I apply? I don't mind moving to Germany.

You only need to Google for it.

https://www.mygermanuniversity.com/universities

You are a little bit limited by what you like to study if you don't speak German as not every university offers a bachelor in English but it's doable.

I think an American HS diploma doesn't qualify you for admission unless you do well on the SAT or ACT.

I've got a bachelors and I did excellent on my ACT... 14 years ago.

If only Germany were smart enough to give people who study here a 2-3 year work visa after they finish their studies. As it is you still need to find an employer willing to sponsor you (which at least is easy if you earn a lot).

While this criticism is true for non-EU / EFTA citizens, every citizen from an EU country can freely work in Germany (or any other EU country).

>In Germany you study for free.

By "free" I think what you are trying to say is that in Germany working class people, the majority of whom don't go to college, pay for rich kids to go to college, rather than having those people pay for themselves.

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