> "People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour"
Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Why Ukraine but not Syria?
Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Why Ukraine but not Syria?
There is no universal logical line. It is also very patronising to try and tell a cultral group of people who they should or shouldn't consider their neighbour. This isn't to say comparisons shouldn't be drawn between the different scenarios just that doing so while proposing that the solution is racism (or similar) will lead to nothing consutructive and only bitterness and resentment at the accusations.
For example, If two people riding Harley motorcycles and two other people driving converted camper vans all arrive at a rest stop at the same time, it is likely that they will be friendly with each other based on the type of vehicle they arrived in.
But religion,politics,race,gender,age,nationality all can be big ones as well. Syria hits a lot of those.
If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one.
Anyway, I'd like to say that people is being too cynical about this. There has been, and there are right now, many efforts in Europe for supporting and integrating non-european refugees and inmigrants.
This "oh look, they care because they're white", well, there's a lot of selection bias right there, and I don't think we should be sorry to care about people we feel it's the same to us.
There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now.
> "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one."
The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism.
We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences.
I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic.
> "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now."
And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?
Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism.
It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade.
[1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225
Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity?
Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe?
>usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism.
You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.
> "Of course, it is not only Ukraine’s population but its level of economic development that makes membership so costly for the EU. Ukraine is much poorer than Bulgaria, the poorest existing EU member state. Using 2013 World Bank pre-crisis (mid-year) figures, Ukraine’s GDP per capita ($3,900) was slightly over half (53%) that of Bulgaria ($7,340). Ukraine’s GDP per capita is also just over one-tenth (11%) that of the EU average ($34,240). For the sake of comparison, the GDP per capita of Croatia, the newest EU member, is almost identical to that of Poland ($13,520) and higher than that of the largest candidate country Turkey ($10,945)."
"Ukraine’s membership prospects are also linked to significant legal and political challenges. In discussions over Ukraine’s Association Agreement, EU negotiators repeatedly expressed concern over Ukraine’s high level of corruption, and insisted upon reforms within the judicial and electoral systems, as well as the release of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko from prison for medical treatment."
[1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_E...
I think this is where this conversation is going to have to end, because I don't think this is a reasonable, or a rational argument to make.
We've started this thread by trying to better understand why many other countries who are in a way worse situation do not get the same help offered now to Ukraine - and you're response is now basically down to "because the Ukrainian people are special and I know it".
Then why aren't YOU helping those in worse situation from many other countries that are not Ukraine?
Help is not a random charity, countries are funded by their taxpayers so the taxpayers in a democratic country should have a saying on where their tax money should go to for help or else their leaders will be voted out come next elections, and if many EU countries are biased for whatever reason to help Ukraine or Ukrainians, then it's their choice to do so regardless of how you feel about it. Life is merciless and inherently unfair to almost everyone and whining about the fairness of it on the internet won't help anyone.
If this unfairness bothers you then vote against this or put your money where your mouth is and donate it or go to the middle east or Africa and help the poor people there.
I'm sorry but all I can see in this criticism is people who feel uneasy because we feel closer to Ucranians.
I don't feel sorry for it, honestly.
The horror stories like “Syrian refugee kills pregnant woman with machete” or “10 men gang rape woman outside nightclub” (8/10 being Syrian refugees) certainly aren’t helping either.
Why is being on the same continent a "very basic minimum requirement"?
The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria, critics should be thankful that the EU is doing so much given the cost in social harmony and a rise in extreme right-wing sentiments.
Sweden and Germany aren't next to, or "very near" to, Ukraine. Next to Ukraine are Russia, Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Poland and Turkey.
If you're fine with people from Ukraine coming to Sweden and Germany on the basis of Ukraine's geographical proximity to those countries, I'm not sure why you'd be against people from Syria coming to Sweden and Germany.
A lot of Syrians sought asylum in Greece and Italy - they're not that far from Syria after-all?
> "The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria"
What does the EU "owe" Ukraine? Ukraine isn't a member state either, just like Syria. Does the EU also owe Georgia or Moldova anything?
I think you need to take a break and contemplate your biases and presuppositions towards people.
Actually the real mystery is why the EU would take anyone at all from Syria, which is pure courtesy and zero obligation. And the answer is that the EU is a wannabe moral superpower that’s great at taking in refugees (or people claiming to be refugees) and bad at everything that comes after. It’s already over its capacity to absorb outsiders. In the end the EU heads of state act surprised that anti-foreigner sentiments and the popularity of right-wing parties are rising, rinse and repeat while the wheels haven’t fallen off yet.
The UK seem to know their limits since their new found independence and just as expected they’re getting skewered for not throwing the gates wide open.