Russia-phobia isn't going to help the Ukraine. Hate in any form isn't going to help.
Oh and when attracted you can surrender or fight. If you fight you might loose, but if you don't, you lost. Hate is not only justified, it does absolutely help.
No country owes it to any other country to trade with them. Any country absolutely has the right to revoke its willingness to trade with other countries on a case by case basis. Any country or organization that sanctions Russia is doing the right thing, too; all decent people in the world should be using all non-violent means at the minimum to make war so costly for aggressors that war becomes near-impossible. If anything, Russia is not sanctioned enough currently.
Edit: Don't forget that there are > 2 million Ukrainian refugees currently who have been forced to flee their country. Those that continue to live in Ukraine are having their homes and infrastructure bombed or disconnected. The suffering of the Russian people due to these sanctions pales in comparison to the suffering that the Russian government/military is directly inflicting on Ukrainians. Those sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops inflicting harm on Ukrainians.
Have you ever sanctioned anyone before in this manner? Israel? Syria? Iraq? The US? China? India?
I never said sanctioning couldn't be done. I'm just saying if your sanctions affect random citizens who are already powerless, and not the leaders of the country, then you're just being an asshole, and no, you aren't helping.
Sanctions are just one of the few tools in the toolbox that can be used to punish a country's leadership, besides going to war.
If that ISN'T your argument, is your argument then: "Sanctions will affect both the Russian government's ability to wage war AND the Russian people, and because the sanctions affect the Russian people, they are not justified" ? Could it ever be the case that sanctions could affect only a government's ability to wage war and never the people of a country? Are you then arguing that sanctions are never justified no matter the circumstances? How far are you willing to take this argument? Should a country be forced to trade and engage in business with a country that is currently invading them?
I really don't understand exactly what you're arguing here and I'd appreciate clarification
I kind of doubt that. I think it might bea while until these sanctions are taken down.
Keep things in perspective: No body wants to send the average internet user to la Hague. That's the place for Putin and those who fly the air raids. This is just making this average day a bit worse for the sake of stifling Russias ability to sustain this attack.
All of this will stop the moment the invasion stops. Russian Joes wants it to stop? Fine, go complain at those who choose to continue the war. There is a direct cause-and-effect relation there.
But two things in response to this:
- While hard to know with certainty, there is strong evidence a plurality of Russians support the war. Caveat given what they are swayed by Putins' gov media lies.
I read 58% in this source and I can't find it but I think Navalny org said 50%. [1]
Furthermore yes while it seems young conscripts were sent into Ukraine at this point it would be very clear to those on the ground what they are doing. I get they are probably making calculations about punishment or even death for desertion. But they aren't ignorant at this point but active participants.
Russian civilians aren't close to wholly innocent.
- I'm afraid that targeted sanctions have not and will not work.
I'm not sure if punishing the population economically will cause regime change. I hope it will. They have to fight if they want it - yes I understand the deadly costs of that but it's a choice millions of people are making in Ukraine and have throughout history. One reason there is more sympathy than say Afghanistan.
Even if lowering life quality in Russia doesn't cause change, this is a response to obscene attacks; i think the sanctions are actually less than proportional/reciprocal. proportional would be 'kinetic' military but that's obviously super dangerous.
Should always remember humanitarian aid through.
Sadly this high road is being bombed in Ukraine right now (maternity ward is just another stressed expletive filled morning for me)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi...
If you want to keep filling up your car with gas, maybe stop setting people's barns on fire all the time.
Who isn't afraid of a corrupt super-oligarch that seems to have the authority to kill tens of thousands at a whim with his nation-state army and doesn't answer to nobody?
Nevermind the nuclear button!
I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance.
You gonna start chasing them with pitchforks in your own country?
Not when the consequence of that is being beaten up, tortured, and then put in prison for up to 15 years (as per the recent law changes). Oh, and getting your relatives punished as well, despite them having nothing to do with it. Here is a take on it from Human Rights Watch[0]. Just the knowledge of such consequences makes a person just shut down, carry on, and not worry much about anything except your own and your family's survival.
Side-tangent: sometimes I really do wonder what kind of cushy and sheltered lives some users on HN live, where they instantly jump to "if people don't protest in millions, it means they support Putin". I think I am pretty comfortable now, but I still very clearly remember what it was like living in Russia (before I escaped to the US over a decade ago), so these types of replies grind me the wrong type of way.
And yes, there are plenty of people who actually support Putin in Russia, and we need them on our side. Some support him out of ignorance, some for other reasons. But, I think, it is a bit less surprising if you phrase it as "Plenty of Russian people supported the special operation for liberating people in Ukraine". It is a blatant lie, but more and more people in Russia are opening their eyes to this being total bs. Sanctions help, outside news drumming up the reporting of the conflict help.
On their own, those things don't seem that wild, but if you couple total brainwashing with extremely severe and brutal consequence for even questioning the narrative, you get an extremely repressed population that will be heavily discouraged (even within their own heads) from protesting.
0. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-arrests-an...
This narrative that Putin is somehow solely waging a war with the entire population in opposition is an absolute meme. If the Russian people were sick of him they'd depose him, elections or no elections, Russians have done it to their leaders plenty of times.
In any country as vast and populous like Russia leaders always depend on the consent of the governed autocratic or not. I know it doesn't fit into this comical worldview where every Russian is secretly an American yearning to breathe free, oppressed by Putin.
I hope putin will be the second case.
Firstly can't ignore the rise of putin and him gaining more power & popularity after similar attacks. He at least used to be broadly popular, even though he messes with the actual elections.
And a LOT of Russians support the war.
Here is a poll I put in another comment puts at 58% support. I read another I think from Navalny said 50% but I can't find it so grain of salt.
complicated given they only see lies on TV.
But at this point the conscript soldiers know what they are doing. A lot of Russians ARE connected to the West and know the truth.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-publi...