Comment by _fat_santa | Hacker News Reader

Comment by _fat_santa | Hacker News Reader

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> While loads of us may have had fun experiences trading cards and whatnot, this all still happens with kids but with a much more overt monetary component.

The more I think about it, the more I realize loot boxes to kids now are what trading card packs were to kids back in the day. When I was in elementary school, I was deep into Yu-Gi-Oh! cards. Card packs ran ~$4 and carried the chance that you got a super powerful card. I spent probably close to $100 on cards over the years which, for a 8 year old kid, would be akeen to me dropping $3k on the new Mac Studio.

But there were natural controls in place back then. I had to save up every week to get a new pack, and I only had one chance per week to buy a pack. Now with microtransaction, the biggest problem (in the context of kids), is how easily accessible it is. If I came home and opened my pack to find that it didn't have any good cards, I would have to wait another week to get another pack. Now a kid can just go and get another lootbox instantly.

But they still have to pay for it right? How is this different than say if you bought your game cards, opened them up outside the store and after you realized you didn't get the card you wanted, you went back inside and bought another one? I'm confused how this is different

Packs of cards don't have psychologically manipulative lights and sounds which probably does make a difference, but a pack of cards also can't send you constant notifications, and isn't accessible 27/7. Opening a pack outside the store and going right back inside isn't the same unless the kid never leaves the store's property and the store never closes.

Packs of cards also released specific sets with set odds. Games can add or change the contents of lootboxes on the fly, as well as adjust the odds to keep you hooked. They can strategically give you a rare or very useful (for you) item when you've had a long streak of junk to keep you interested, or evaluate your play-style and chats to determine exactly when you're most vulnerable (tired, manic, just got your birthday money, etc).

Loot boxes and gacha mechanics have their place, and can be fun but they are gambling and can also be exploitative. It's worth keeping a close eye on how they're being used and limiting the impact they'll have on kids.

Loot boxes should be regulated in the same way as other gambling, so for like poker/slot machines where there's a minimum payout and known fixed odds of winning.

They should be age restricted as well, although that doesn't really work with games as I've heard many stories of mothers buying their 12 year old a copy of Cyberpunk 2077 or other adult rated games.

I think the effect is similar to what Peter Norvig described in his "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Data" lecture (which if you haven't seen, you should really check it out -- its awesome).

In essence, yeah, the core mechanic is the same, but the digitization of it fundamentally transforms its ubiquity, how often it can be iterated, optimized for more and more segmented group of kids, etc. I think there is an argument to be made that enough of that can effectively change the character of the activity itself, even if it is at first glance "sorta the same thing."

You quite certainly did not sit in front of the supermarket's cash register with your mom's credit card shoving packs of cards over the counter for hours on end. The overall physicality of the process back in the day prevented the feedback loops to manifest. The lack of speed decoupled spending from gratification thus ensuring your behavior wouldn't devolve into a bonafide gambling addiction.

Many of these games have different types of in game currency which can be used to purchase lootboxes. With FIFA, one of those currencies can be bought with money. The other one can't be purchased directly and is earned through playing the game or selling what is received in the lootboxes. This means that a person doesn't need to use real money to participate in the gambling aspect. They can instead gamble their time which might not be as damaging as gambling money, but is still just as addicting.

Also even the real money gambling in a game like FIFA is more dangerous than physical trading cards. With physical cards, you had to go to a store and pay at point of sale. You couldn't easily do that with your parent's credit card and there was always a person on the other end of the transaction to stop you or even just exist as a social obstacle to discourage obscene spending. Those obstacles don't exist with lootboxes. A parent's credit card can easily be added to an account and you don't have to look another human in the eyes to make a purchase.

> With physical cards, you had to go to a store and pay at point of sale.

No, you didn't; mail-order and then online retail in the hobby games industry has existed as long trading card games have.

Fair enough, but I believe that is a fraction of the business compared to in person sales. Most kids were buying baseball cards or Pokemon cards from local stores. Plus those methods of purchase introduce their own obstacles such as latency. It is much more difficult to form an addiction when there is a two-week turnaround in each transaction compared to the instantaneous clicking of a button.

I think the point stands: there is an aspect of delayed gratification in the waiting a week for money then getting away to go the store, and possibly waiting until you got home to open them. Mail order was worse, as postage added more waiting time and cost.

Having it instantly accessible from your phone makes it so much easier to lose impulse control.

I agree; is the premise here that audiovisual spectacle of opening the box in the video game somehow compounds the problem? Or that there's some manipulation of scarcity or something? The "core mechanic" seems exactly the same.

I think the issue is the lower barrier of access. Every small step added to the process discourages the use: get driven to the store, walking to the counter, talking to the employee, physically pulling money out of your pocket, physically seeing how much money you have left.

All of those contribute to making it more difficult to buy cards.

Loot boxes, on the other hand, is much easier. Once you store your credit card info, all you have to do is press a button or two.

This is the general idea Nudge Theory (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_theory#:~:text=Nudge%2....) when shaping behavior.

I assume because an 8 year old kid needs a ride, and more money to buy another pack.

I don't think it matters a whole lot whether or not there are any differences between lootboxes and TCs. I think there are but let's assume they are identical. So what? I know that I had TCs growing up yet I find lootboxes so infuriating that I have almost entirely stopped playing games created after 2015.

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