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Comment by _nalply | Hacker News Reader

I experienced corruption and had to bribe an officer. This was more than 20 years ago. I hope you find my tale interesting as an example how bribery is executed exactly, even if you are clueless like me.

I was in Romania to watch the solar eclipse of there. Then we started our itinary back home. About one kilometer before the border to Hungary we were stopped by the police. It was very flat and the road very straight. We already could see the border post in the distance. The officer seemed friendly and beckoned me to get out of the car. I got off and he wanted to look at the trunk. I opened it and I showed him our gear, two tents, sleeping bags, clothes, some food and it took the time. He was very friendly, like an older uncle of you. He wanted to look at our papers again and when I passed him my passport he made a gesture, he put the flat hand between two pages.

After some time I suddenly realized that he wanted to be bribed. Duh!

Then I said, sorry no more Romanian Lei, but we have Hungarian Forint, and he nodded eagerly. So I said, just a moment please and took back my passport then I did some calculation in my head. I decided to give him $20 worth in Forint and put the notes in the passport and gave him the passport back. He was happy and gestured that we can continue.

Just to know, this was only two years after the fall of Ceausescu.

We drove away. Slowly just to give him the feeling that he has the situation in control.

We expected to wait about 15 minutes at the border post, as it already happened when we entered Romania. But when we slowly cruised to the post, another officer appeared and beckoned us through. We overtook about four cars.

I didn't plan to but we got VIP treatment.

Today I think I shouldn't have bribed the officer. However I was completely clueless and I had a good rapport with the officer and I just wanted to help him and us. I still don't know what I should have done.

View on HN

You (unfortunately) did the right thing and this is (unfortunately) still common in several Eastern European countries (and elsewhere for example certain areas in India and LATAM) especially outside the central areas. I actively avoid trips/routes that take me through areas where bribing is necessary.

As for "what happens if I refuse" - in anecdotal experience:

- I've seen friends arrested/detained until they paid up (happened 3-4 times).

- I've seen officials attempting to take a bribe "give up" when we acted confused (1-2 times).

- I've seen officials invent very creative excuses about a "EU tax" or "foreigner tax" or "special foreigner tickets".

I want to say this is amusing but honestly the situation is always terrifying and unclear and I actively avoid places with corruption when picking my tourist destinations.

Tangentially related, but "what happens if I refuse" is a thing with US tipping culture as well. I was at a bar once during a conference, I didn't realize you're supposed to tip the waitress at every drink you order. That was not ideal.

I mean on the one side I'm cringing with embarrassment, on the other... the fuck?

Could we understand tips as a lesser form of corruption?

I mean, the root cause is similar: low wages incentives the official/waiter to ask for more money directly to a citizen/client, or else.

There's no tips where I'm from, so tips have always been strange and unecessary to me.

Genuinely wondering. I have no fixed opinion.

Edit to add: also a root cause is that both practices are generally accepted in some areas.

It's not corruption, unless you consider the whole wage system for restaurant staff in the US to be corrupt. And as tips are paid at the end of service, the waiter doesn't know if you'll tip well or not while serving you.

Today, tips are paid because wait staff are paid below minimum wage. This is legal - as tipping is baked into their compensation. It's stupid and anachronistic, but it's not the fault of the staff (though GOOD waiters will often express support for the system because they fear going to fixed wage w/ zero tipping will reduce their income).

I'd much prefer a living wage with optional tips for extraordinary service (which seems to be the norm in much of western Europe). Here in the US, 20% gratuity is pretty much expected. And FWIW, I'll pay 25-30% for good service, and to get less than 20%, a waiter would have to be downright awful.

And as tips are paid at the end of service, the waiter doesn't know if you'll tip well or not while serving you.

At bars on the other hand the 'corruption' is much clearer. Tip badly for a round of drinks and you'll get slow/bad service for the rest of the evening. Tip well and you'll get priority service and perhaps even free booze. Especially with spirits and mixed drinks the corruption is obvious. Tip well and the bartender will pour you a double while charging you for a single, essentially 'stealing' from his employer and selling you the stolen goods at a discount under the table.

*At a discount relative to the insane markup spirits have at a typical bar.

It's not totally implausible that the owner is fully aware of the situation and accepts the status quo as a local maximum of profitability, why mess with standing social norms -- much how most restauraunteurs in the states wouldn't dream of paying a living wage for their wait staff because they know customers are going to tip sufficiently regardless of wages and that enough potential employees are fine with the situation (or prefer it) that they won't have staffing issues.

If you're going to pay by credit anyway, you can usually open a tab when you start, and then pay all at once at the end. That's how I've always done it, maybe it's regional?

I've only seen that in local places. Otherwise its too easy to just leave from bigger venues without paying.

The non-local places around the USA will take your card when starting a tab and many automatically add gratuity if you walk out without closing it (unsure if they place credit holds based on each order). At venues like concert arenas you may not see this, but I always suspected it was more due to the logistical challenge arising from people all wanting to leave at the same time.

I took a cruise with a large group of friends once. We all had the drink package and prepaid gratuities, but we tipped extra for all of our drinks at the two bars that were our favorites. For only an extra $0.50/drink, I was getting 2-3x the alcohol and the wait staff would ignore other patrons to go straight to us. It made me feel kind of bad, but the service was outstanding and I knew the money was going to a good cause since many of the workers on these cruise ships send money back home to family.

TLDR: It’s remarkable what tipping and basic human decency can do to the quality of service you receive at a bar.

It’s remarkable what tipping and basic human decency can do

Of course we now need an experiment to disentangle those two variables! One team tips very well, but treats the staff badly , one team treats the staff with plenty of human decency, but doesn't tip. Then we measure the quality of service received by the two groups. I wonder if I can apply for a research grant?

You’re using the technical definition to claim tips as not corruption. And of course we all know that, otherwise it would have been illegal.

The point is, fundamentally the current way tips are collected in the US is like corruption. And like corruption, it should be made illegal.

For those who think people can’t survive without tips, first it is a problem that they are mistreated by their employer, second make it legally binding to mandatory add 20% or whatever to the meal and pass that to the directly (again legally binding).

If you think tips encourage good quality of service, other places without a culture of giving tips have our ways of providing good quality of service. You don’t need tip for that.

I once heard tips people gave, that when checking into hotel rooms, you should hold a 20 dollar notes as hint of tip and then ask them for upgrade. If they do, then you give them the tip. This is bribery, one of the many examples how tip culture can be used in a way indistinguishable to corruption.

Depends on the state, In California they can’t be be paid below minimum wage.

Good point - most states require the pay to be the greater of 1) normal minimum wage OR 2) wait-specific min wage + tips/hour.

So, a waiter should always earn at least minimum wage, but can earn more if tips are good.

However, in practice, there are problems with this system. First, waiters who don't earn lots of tips usually get the bad shifts, then fired. Second, lots of room for wage theft.

And there is a whole bunch of wage theft - you can't forget that wage theft accounts for the most damaging crime by pure value in the US alone. Individual occurrences aren't generally for tons of money, but it happens everywhere.

In no state can a tipped employee be paid below minimum wage. If their base wage plus tips received over hours worked are below the minimum, then the employer is obligated to make up the difference. Of course, not everyone knows this, and I'm sure there are a lot of employers taking advantage of the situation.

The difference is in some states, there's not a different minimum base for tipped employees. So you're always making at least real min wage on your check automatically without having to worry about your boss actually doing the true up like they're supposed to.

Even if you know it, what are you going to do? Likely you can't afford a lawyer, and you definitely can't afford to leave your job to sue, since so many benefits in the US are tied to being employed. Employers know this...

Get another job and then sue before leaving your current one?

Presumably they can be fired if they routinely make below minimum wage in tips though.

With the Shopping-as-a-service going crazy during the 2020 height of Covid, the 'tips' were very much corrupted. You had to specify the tip amount when placing the order. How was that ever supposed to work? I was watching one very large order of mine where the shopper supposedly showed up to the store 7 minutes before it closed and started marking each of my items as out of stock. Trip was still completed so the tip was taken. 13 hours on hold to get that taken care of.

In the US, servers can make much more than minimum wage. Cash tips weren't reported for taxes. Reference: dated waitresses

Tipping in the US is a lasting legacy of prohibition. Before then, it was considered anti democratic bribery.

With a server, you exchange money for goods & services. Tipping makes the exchange a little weird and tax laws built around the practice can be complex. But it's still fundamentally a "normal" purchase. Not corruption.

With a government agent, you are not necessarily supposed to be paying them. Typical bribes are dependent upon an implicit threat of abuse of power rather than being a normal purchase of goods & services.

Tips are not a "lesser form of corruption". Unless you were somehow buying something with that tip that would otherwise be off-limits but in that case I think people would call it a bribe.

I interpreted the assertion there as being that you're bribing them for better service, and an argument that this is "corrupt" because there is a belief that the service should be provided at a single price that is known to everyone, with equal quality to anyone who is willing to pay it, as opposed to favoring customers who pay extra.

That said, it's up for debate whether this is a valid expectation either in the context of public services provided by the government, engagements with private parties, or both.

Indeed. However with language sophistry it can be justified as low wages in service industry. I of course do not visit restaurants and bars. It helps that good people on social media have advised that stingy/no-tippers must not go to restaurants or bars etc. If they still do so at-least appreciate if waiter spits into their food before serving.

> I of course do not visit restaurants and bars

Of course.

Tipping is almost the opposite of police corruption.

The idea behind tipping is that the wait staff will do a better job if part of their salary depends on impressing the customer. How well this actually works is a different conversation.

With police corruption they are purposely doing a bad job to get the bribe, and getting the bribe encourages them to keep doing a bad job.

I wish wait staff were paid better, or atleast got an automatic gratuity everywhere, then we wouldn't need tips.

It's not quite the same thing, but retaliation against people who don't tip well is very much a thing. Since tipping is at the end of the interaction, it doesn't really come up except for repeat customers.. but not tipping when you're a regular is a good way to get your food spat in.

I'm American, I grudgingly accept that tipping is how things are done and not tipping would be unfair to wait staff, but even before COVID I was mostly choosing restaurants that don't have table service just to avoid the 20% tip tax.

Yes.

I am not sure why only car sales guys get bad rap when restaurants always looking to hide true cost to customers in advertisements.

I don't mind paying the tip, in fact I regularly over tip. I have never felt bad for tipping too much. What I don't like is having to spend any mental energy at all deciding how much to tip. With restaurants it's at least a known amount, with other professions who knows how much you're supposed to tip? I don't want to google how much to tip, just change me more, and pay them more.

In theory this is true. In practice... I don't know. Lots of countries have fairly decent service quality without a strong tipping culture.

Edit: OK, there is one big difference: tipping is encouraged by the employer while bribery is not.

yeah, I think there was a study a while back that said most people tip the same regardless of the quality of service. Which is why I said "How well this actually works is a different conversation"

Small sample, but my dining experience is typically equivalent between Europe and the US (when comparing like-to-like for restaurant quality). The biggest difference seems to be chain dining in the US, where you get the phony "how you doing?" every 5 minutes, which I find annoying. Maybe some people consider this good service? I'd prefer to be left alone until I'm obviously in need of something (glass almost empty, offer me a refill, no need to ask when the glass is 70% full, etc).

"How were those first few bites?"

From a marxist perspective tipping is a scam in order to get cheaper labor. The employer underpays the worker and imposes an extra tax on the customer to fill the gap. This way the employer offsets their risk onto the worker when business is low while still keeping high profits when business is good.

If tipping is a form of a corruption, it is the boss—which neither gives nor receives the tip—who is the corrupt one.

As a non-US person I've refused to tip in the US (well, left an explicit 0.10$ tip so they know I didn't forget) when getting really bad service before. While it was probably considered rude I have never had the wait-staff chase me like I was promised by some travel sites.

I would never try that sort of thing with an officer attempting to solicit a bribe though :]

> never had the wait-staff chase me

I have. I went to a Chinese buffet in Raleigh, North Carolina, with my family. We finished eating, went to the cashier and paid, then we left.

As we were getting into our car the 'waiter' who had sloshed lemonade into out glasses ran up loudly complaining that we hadn't left him a tip. Why such people should be tipped is beyond me.

Anyway, I further insulted him by handing him a single dollar bill, with a smile.

I left a $10 tip at a Chinese buffet I frequented in Finland to a friendly waiter. They insisted it covered payment for my next lunch. Finland doesn't have strong tipping culture, but it still felt strange for a restaurant to outright refuse a tip, especially a foreign one :D

Offering a tip can even be considered offensive. Something along the lines of "You normally do a very poor job, can I bribe you to at least try this time?"

Your point stands about tips being considered offensive, but isn't avoiding that rationale part of why tips almost always follow the service in question? I understood one possible reason being that people want their (hopefully diligent and appropriately generous) service to be seen as the default, rather than something worthy of an additional reward for any special treatment.

> Why such people should be tipped is beyond me.

Because that person is paid $2.50/hr for their work.

If you don't want to tip, you should boycott the restaurant until they implement a fair wage policy.

> Because that person is paid $2.50/hr for their work.

This is an illegal wage according to federal minimum wage laws. I can't imagine the GP commenter should be responsible for labor law violations beyond reporting it to the relevant local agency. Many states go even farther, requiring the same minimum wage (excluding tips) even for tipped employees, but the federal law already requires minimum wage including tips.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage

Meanwhile restaurants can take a lead by putting a big honking notice "NO-TIPPERS ARE NOT WELCOME!" or some such clear message to customers.

Unlike boycott this way customers are given ample chance to behave even if they are not local and visiting first time.

FYI that reads as extremely rude and uncaring to me as a US person, to the point where if you kept doing it I wouldn't be comfortable being friends with you.

Unless by bad service you mean something like spitting in your food or calling you a slur, you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything where you sit down and have food brought to you. 20-25% for good service.

Tipping culture in the US is very weird. I would rather have the prices be 15% higher, and not tip. Otherwise, where does it stop? Do you tip bus drivers? Nurses and doctors? What about teachers? Why not tip at the grocery store? Perhaps you should leave 15% of the flight ticket as a tip to flight attendants?

People should get paid decently, and not rely on tips to make a living.

It really is weird. I arrived at a hotel with a small bag. I checked in to the hotel and tried to carry my bag to my room. A staff member was all awkward and kind of took the bag off me to carry it 10 steps to the lift then 10 steps to the room. They then walked into room and wouldn’t leave until I realised it was about the tip.

It’s basically a standover extortion at that point.

I think most of us would prefer that.

Unfortunately the US has a tipping culture enshrined in law. So businesses can legally pay their employees who may potentially receive tips far below minimum wage.

Not all states have a different tipped wage. I am from one of the states that doesn't have a different tipped wage. Servers get paid at least the state minimum with many making at least $15/hr. However, due to the majority of the country having tipped wages we are still expected to tip 15-25%.

People cant separate the cultural expectation of tipping from the reason the expectation exists. I find it mildly infuriating that the reason tipping exists isn't even present in my state but I am still expected to tip.

Sort of. If they don't make enough in tips to bring their effective pay up to minimum wage, the employer still has to make up up the gap.

As a European - just put it on the bill in the first place.

I will happily give 15-20% tips for great service, but that is a additional and is given freely - not what is to be expected.

Sure, in theory that'd be ideal. In the mean time your refusal to accept the way it works in the country you're visiting only hurts service workers. That's why I said I personally couldn't be the friend of someone who does it.

I genuinely rather avoid any establishment that expects tips than feel obligated to pay tips. It does mean that I will never go to a restaurant or similar establishment, but the feeling of being obligated to pay some unsaid price just disgusts me. Either you say it upfront of there's no deal.

But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.

Some people avoid taking a holiday or business trip to India, because they don't like the constant harassment from street traders, the expectation to barter and bargain for everything, the ever-present concern that they're either overpaying or being ripped off.

Some of these people also avoid travelling to the USA (and Canada) for similar reasons. Am I supposed to tip for this? Is this a $1 tip, or $5, or 15%? But the card terminal is giving a choice of only 20% or 25%... and is it better to leave cash anyway?

(I'm sure you could explain every situation, just like an Indian can explain all the situations in India.)

Barter?

You are describing a Hippie taking a holiday, perhaps.

I am in India and I never bargain, hate the pressure. You never have to bargain unless you are in a known tourist trap places, wanting to buy trinkets.

In my experience (which is a decade out of date for India, admittedly, although the point was more about the USA) being white makes me an obvious tourist, regardless of the situation. Any initial price will be 5-20× higher than an initial price you'd get.

Fixed price markets and services like Uber are a welcome improvement, but there are still plenty of recent articles (mainly blogs) aimed at tourists concerning bargaining in India.

("Hippies" on holiday in most of Europe don't have to bargain.)

> But it is clearly known up front. It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known.

I've lived in the US all my life, and I'm still confused at when tips are required and when it's just a nice thing to do. Even order-at-the-counter places now ask for a tip (often pre-filled to 15%) at checkout. Are their employees being paid below minimum wage? I don't think so, but they know it's ambiguous enough that they can exploit the weird culture around tips.

Where is the line for when a tip is required? If I pick up my food at the counter but they clean up the tables when I'm done, are those employees making less than minimum wage? If I order at the counter but someone brings me the food? The sit-down restaurant with a dedicated waiter is the easy case, but it's not the only case.

There are a ton of ambiguous edge cases, and many, many restaurants are deliberately exploiting the uncertainty. The whole thing is a mess, and I totally sympathize with Europeans who get confused and just give up.

(Not that it's okay not to tip as long as we have this confusing mess of a wage system. You just can't say that it's an easy social norm to understand and follow.)

> It's not printed on a sign, but neither is the rule you can't spit at the waitor. Both are clearly socially known

What kind of weak-ass restaurant hygiene laws do you have there?

That's true. I guess it would be difficult to avoid places where this obligation exists without knowing about it beforehand.

Then you need to find a different country to hang out in. Much like you would if you felt that covering your genitals was a needless cultural construct that disgusts you.

We live in a society.

We do. And surely we can improve it?

Perhaps. Don’t think you’re improving it by stiffing service workers on tips though.

Tipping culture in the US will never change unless millions of customers suddenly stop paying tips. When millions of customers stop paying tips at the same time if puts the pressure on establishments to start paying their employees fair wages. Customers should go on tip-strike

I don’t tip but also live somewhere with a far better minimum wage.

Not by not tipping the server who can legally be paid less than minimum wage by their employers.

That's not correct.

There's no plausible scenario where some sort of mass collective customer driven action requiring coordination is going to be effective.

Tipping culture will change when restaurants change their compensation structure.

A restaurant can commit to paying the team a fair wage, include the costs in the menu pricing, prohibit tipping, and loudly market that it's what they are doing. It's happened in many places and it works. Danny Meyer in NYC seems to be doing pretty well with this plan for example.

Depriving the least powerful people in the whole equation isn't a solution. Lobby the business owners who actually make the decisions.

You're not wrong there. The US is definitely on the list of countries that I don't want to visit. Albeit for other reasons.

Nobody tips at Mcdonalds.

See context of my initial post

> you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything where you sit down and have food brought to you

No table service at McDonald’s.

Well, we have table service at McDonald's in France. Still no tips :D

nobody cares about table service.

> you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything

No. If it’s part of the bill, put it on the bill.

It’s even worse if they ask for a tip up front like seriously, what?

The people hurt by your actions are not the ones making the decision you're objecting to. As such, refusing because you think it's morally wrong that American bills are spelled weird is amoral to me.

> are not the ones making the decision you're objecting to

No one is making this as a decision. Restaurant owners that have tried to put in place a no tipping policy have customers tip anyway because Americans are uncomfortable not tipping. They then think, somewhat accurately, the restaurant has high prices. We are stuck with a bad system.

It's not a bad system, per se, but is a poorly documented system.

There should be a note on American menus that says "We underpay our staff, so 15-20% tipping is expected." And European menus should read "We compensate our staff sufficiently, so tipping is not expected."

In reality, both of these are never written out, and everyone is expected to learn them culturally. Which ultimately leaves tourists in an awkward spot.

In France, bills usually say "service compris" which means "service included".

In Britain, bills usually say "Service charge" or "Service is included" [1]

But I think these are exceptions, and I wouldn't expect it in general -- just like it doesn't say "Service included" when I buy a buy shoes in France or Britain, even though the staff usually have to fetch them from the stock room.

[1] https://i.inews.co.uk/content/uploads/2019/01/oh.jpg

> There should be a note on American menus that says "We underpay our staff, so 15-20% tipping is expected."

I was recently in a restaurant that had exactly that. There was a fine print note at the bottom of the menu explaining that because a state law prevented servers from splitting tips with the kitchen staff, a 3% surcharge would be added to the check so that non-tipped staff could "earn a living wage".

https://www.squidlipsgrill.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Sq...

Agreed, except that I think it's poorly document and a bad system.

That's why I started this by saying I'd have an issue with someone who kept not tipping after being informed about the issue.

The bad or not feels arbitrary. It's "different".

But I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason that "customer -> staff" is objectively better or worse than "customer -> owner -> staff".

Same money, gets to the same place.

* In reality, both of these are never written out, and everyone is expected to learn them culturally. Which ultimately leaves tourists in an awkward spot.*

It does more than confuse tourists, it locks every restaurant into the system whether the owners wish it or not. That’s why I think the “we underpay” with its pejorative tinge is inappropriate.

It's somewhat disturbing that paying someone a reasonable price is a question of morality rather than jurisprudence. If you left establishments in other countries having payed 20% less than was on your bill, it could well be a matter for the police (in practice of course if it was a small absolute amount, perhaps they wouldn't bother the first time you did it...).

Totally agree.

Interestingly, people have been (wrongly) arrested for not paying tips in the US. They were quickly released, but I think that misconception indicates how strong of a norm paying at least something in tips is.

In the short term yes. But that is exactly what the industry and employers rely on.

Long term, tipping just means these employers can compete for labor against other (non-tip) industries forced to pay higher, and without having to reflect that additional cost in their prices to the end customer.

The idea that the employer is the one getting the tip is a myth, and a well bolstered one for obvious reasons.

Er, “employer” should read “employee” in the last paragraph.

> The people hurt by your actions are not the ones making the decision you're objecting to

The same thing is true for the sanctions on Russia.

Nonetheless they are the only tool at my disposal.

There's a significant difference between shelling children and charging you an extra 15% for your dinner.

So you mean they have to almost be criminally negligent or abusive to not receive a full tip?

Exactly, because a tip of 15% isn't a nice extra it's a part of the worker's expected wages.

American workers who can't receive tips in practice don't need to be paid the minimum wage, for example. (In theory there's a process to correct if theyre still below it after tips, but in practice that's regularly flouted).

I am genuinely perplexed by your position that failing to give a tip for mediocre service is amoral, yet failing to pay someone a living wage is just kind of expected.

Honestly, American restaurants shouldn't even bother putting prices on the menu. Between the tipping culture and the taxes it's impossible to guess at the true price of an item.

Never said that. I meant to get across that a systemic issue doesn't excuse you making it worse.

People behaving like you distort the market, stop rewarding bad service!

I usually tip generously but bad service deserve a 0.1$ tip. They choosed to work in the restauration industry and they should know that tip is given for good service, so they are suppose to know that if they want the full salary, they should provide some minimally adequate level of service.

If they don't like this they can work in another sector, if the USA is anything like Canada, big boxes shop like Wallmart and BestBuy are hiring in almost every locations. Those place are more apropriate for service worker that don't want to actualy serve the customer.

Tipping a fixed percentage, regardless of the service, is the closest I can get to opting out of this bizarre and unreasonable practice without being an asshole. I am happy to distort a market which should not exist.

I'm sure you ask your employer to dock you a day's worth of pay every day you're not 100% at it.

You wouldn't want to reward bad work now, would you?

This would be resolved if you said just how bad the service was that it received a $0.10 tip

Companies not paying their workers normal wages should be considered criminal. They're just trying to avoid having to pay additional taxes and social security, by paying workers lower salaries. Companies expecting workers to be paid by tips should be fined, and customers should not agree as they're complicit in tax evation if they do.

Well, wouldn't you be thankful if waiter did not stab you with that steak knife on table. You escaped unharmed with just 20% on top of your bill.

> you should just consider a 15% tip a part of bill for anything where you sit down and have food brought to you

It's not that simple. I fully agree that in cases where the establishment is allowed to under-pay, it's our job to tip. But I've lived in the United States all my life, and there are still enough edge cases in the restaurant industry alone to be terribly confusing. That doesn't even get into questions of barkeeps, hotel staff, taxi drivers, and whoever else.

What if I order at the counter, then I sit down and someone brings me the food? Are the employees who bring me that food making less than minimum wage? How do I know one way or the other?

Even more confusingly, order-at-the-counter restaurants have started asking for 15% tips at checkout. I'm relatively confident that they're not building tips into the wage structure, but how can I be sure?

It's definitely not the fault of the workers that this system exists, but it's a horrible, opaque, and confusing way to do business. At a minimum, restaurants should be required to make it explicit when their employees need the tip.

> While it was probably considered rude

It was extraordinarily rude.

But that isn't how it works here. You're effectively saying your principled stand against the "system" (which changes nothing) is more important than making the person who served you get paid non slave wages. You went into an establishment that you knew had cheaper prices because staff works for tips and you didn't tip. That makes you a bad person. Sorry not sorry.

You can't say "you went into an establishment with cheaper prices and knew this was a requirement" when there is no actual choice - it applies everywhere as far as I've seen; it's not like I can pause my business trip to the US and go to another country for lunch.

in that vein, is there a list somewhere of American eateries which pay non-poverty wages and therefore adopt tipping practices which are less morally reprehensible to us foreigners? I'd happily go out of my way when in the US to avoid this particular cultural norm.

Technically, all American restaurants are "an establishment with cheaper prices" for purposes of this discussion.

There are really 3 relevant parties here: the restaurant owner, the restaurant staff, and the customer.

The owners have lobbied for and gotten exceptions to most minimum wage laws, to the effect that they can pay their staff under minimum wage, with tipping making up the difference.

Consequently, if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage (US$7.25 / hr), or applicable local minimum wage if higher [0].

If staff receives tips, the owner is allowed to pay them a much lower wage (don't remember offhand), with tips making up the difference to meet or exceed minimum wage.

Some of this may be changing due to worker shortages, but restaurant margins are always pretty thin.

Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minimum_wage_by_state_b...

I understand how it works; I'm trying to find a "vote with your feet" solution as an alternative to screwing over poorly paid employees by not tipping. The most obvious way to do that is to favour restaurants where tipping is discouraged.

> if staff receives no tips: the restaurant is required to pay them minimum wage

> Tl;dr - restaurant workers make over minimum wage only if tipped

Your tl;dr doesn't match. According to you workers make minimum wage irrespective of whether you tip (unless the owner breaks the law), and all your tips do is directly offset owner costs.

Yeah, but the restaurant industry is well known for breaking the law when it's easy. This makes it much easier. See for example https://consumerist.com/2013/04/05/waiters-sue-employer-for-...

"over"

It doesn't have cheaper prices, it just has misleading marketing. They should be fined for not showing the real prices. If a tip is mandatory there's no real difference from a bribe: you're supposed to pay someone, without it being clearly documented in the price.

You tip when you pay, not per drink order. Most bars allow you to open a tab if you'll be there long enough to order several rounds.

But, if you're paying as you go, then yeah, you'd tip the bartender each order.

You said waitress, which implies table service. That would normally be tipped when you pay at end of evening. I've never been to a bar that requires paying per drink when seated and getting table service.

Ditto, but it sounds like in this case “waitress” may mean “lady bartender” in which case it makes sense.

Could be. Worth noting that in the US, bartenders and wait staff can be on different pay scales and different tipping plans (pooled tips vs not, split with servers/bus staff or not). Doesn't make a big difference in this discussion, only noting it because if you get a drink at the bar, then go to a table, you might want to make sure both parties (bartender, waiter) are tipped.

Got caught by this as well - was actually scolded by the bartender in an Irish-themed pub in NY for not tipping after the third or fourth round. My group literally had no idea that this was a thing.

I'd have been tempted to point out that in Ireland it certainly isn't a thing.

I don't think I've ever seen a "advice for visiting the US" video, page, or pamphlet that didn't include tipping. The only way you couldn't know is if you did zero research before traveling to a foreign country. That's like not knowing you can't jokingly yell "Heil Hitler!" in Germany.

It is not that simple. There are no clear rules on where you tip. You have to live in the area and simply learn it. E.g. you don’t tip at Starbucks, but you do tip at most cafés, you tip you taxi driver but not your bus driver. You don’t tip at the gas station. In an open bar you are still supposed to tip the bartender even if you don’t pay for the drinks, but hardly any guides tell you that. If there is live music sometimes you are supposed to tip them, but you can never tell when.

I've lived in the US all my life and am still confused about when tips are expected and part of the wage structure. Sit-down restaurants with an assigned waiter are the easy part, it's all the other cases that quickly become confusing.

It's not helped by the fact that every order-at-the-counter restaurant now asks for tips as you pay. It's almost to the point where I assume that a tip is needed if and only if I'm not asked for one. No wonder it's confusing to visitors.

Tipping when you pay the bill at a restaurant is well publicised, but when you go to the bar and buy a drink is not.

Just for clarity, It's really when you pay, not every drink. So if you open a tab, then pay at the end, you only tip once. If you're paying cash after every drink, then you're expected to tip every drink.

I've lived in the US my whole life and I have never seen this. Tipping is certainly expected, but, like with restaurant wait staff, typically done when you settle your tab.

There are a couple of exceptions, but only really if you weren't paying for your drinks, like at a casino. In those cases, yes, you should tip per drink.

When I saw "tipping in advance" I thought of Starbucks, though I'm not sure how much that is opportunism and how much it is now an expectation just like a restaurant.

I always just tip once early on, but I make it fat, they’ll remember you.

That works really well in Vegas, I tipped $5 on our first drink and then $1 per drink there after, the drinks are free while you are gambling. Our server made sure to get us another drink before she finally shed her shift and our glasses were never empty. This was about 10 years ago.

Excuse the maybe ignorant question, but I have no feeling for the prices: is this 1$ Tip on a 3$ beer or more like 1$ tip on a 15$ cocktail?

My rule of thumb is that at a bar, if a beer costs less than 6 or 7 dollars, it's a $1 tip, more than that $2. Cocktails get a bigger tip, depending on the complexity of the drink, but typically land somewhere around the 25% rounded up to the dollar mark.

If you're on a tab, you tip at the end, but a slightly larger cash tip on your first drink will get you much faster service the rest of the evening.

They were tips on free whiskey/vodka + mixer as we were gambling. I googled at the time and those numbers were recommended for that service. For food drinks etc would normally tip 15-20% depending on service, would also go lower if it was terrible.

In Vegas, that $3 beer would cost $15 anyway, if you weren't getting it for free at the tables.

Depends on where you're at and the cost of living in the area. Its about making sure the people serving you are recognized as people and not slaves

Having people rely on some unwritten custom where the rich are expected to give a handout as part of their meal feels much more like treating people as slaves than simply paying people a fair wage and charging what that costs to make workable.

I know it's just a different culture and I try to give a decent tip when I'm in the states as my lack of understanding will not improve the situation but it's still fubar.

Yeah but not tipping is just a civilian. Not paying off an officer of the law in a country is where things start to get a little scary, because of the authority that they wield :/

Also Americans should just get rid of tipping culture already, and pay employees what they deserve. You're a democracy, right?

A police officer has a little more leverage over you than an underpaid waiter. So not really the same at all.

Long time ago a friend from a country I am not naming, told me, that it is also important how to bribe the officer. While they want your money and bad things will happen if you do not give it, bad thinks will also happen if you do it too blatently, since this could be considered insulting. The only phrase I remember is that one can ask 'could I pay the fine on the spot' (in case they want to book you for some imagined traffic violation).

Once after crossing the border from Laos to Thailand a Thai border official expected a bribe from us, citing some obviously made up tourist tax. I saw that they already stamped our passports and even though it was probably a stupid thing to do we just played dumb, slowly repeating the same thing over and over about how we're so confused, we thought there was no additional tax, we must have made a mistake, showing them the printout of the visa we had at the time, yada yada. Never were we confrontational, only slightly annoyingly "simple" I would say and it worked beautifully, after 15 minutes or so they gave us our passports and let us go. I've since applied that strategy in many other contexts, even in western countries.

I don't think this is a normal thing in today's Romania, but perhaps a Romanian will correct me.

Similar story going into Syria, just before the war: we were at the Turkey-Syria border, trying to cross into Syria, and the Syrian border police decided to search all our belongings, including our wallets. Two hours later we got the visa, but it just happened to cost exactly as much as all the money we had on us.

That's extortion isn't it?

Interesting. Your example shows that bribery can be executed even without cooperation by the bribers.

I'm not sure if this should be called bribery or extortion.

Perhaps, but I categorized it as bribery: pay some money to cross this or that hurdle. We did not _have_ to go to Syria, as we are just tourists. But I had no hard feelings; we anticipated something like this, and considering that it was only about a $100, in retrospect, I'm very, very glad I got to see the country before the war.

It's a very small difference to be honest.

Thanks for your story.

McAfee has written an extensive guide on how it works in central America: https://www.whoismcafee.com/the-travel-guide/

> So to give more than is reasonable is a crime against humanity.

Yes, I thought about it. I tried to estimate the salary of the police officer and wanted to give him enough, but not too much. It was a difficult decision and I took some time to think this through, about one minute, but he was very patient. We had about $150 worth in Forint in the car and he saw the notes when I took out the $20. Probably $20 was on the high end, but not so much because it seems he shared the gain with his colleagues.

It seems that we were lucky.

And that's why corruption is bad. It creates wrong incentives and loss of security.

> At the lower levels, however, the system contains an element of grace and humanity, and this lower lever is all that most people will ever encounter.

Hah. Now I stopped wondering about the friendliness of the officer.

Wow. That is one FUGLY site.

Cynical, but spot-on.

The world became a bit darker (but also more sane), when McCafee died.

Thanks. Great resource.

Minor nit. Ceaușescu was removed in 1989, the eclipse was in 1999, 10 years later, not two years.

In 2022 small time corruption in Romania is still a big problem.

Sorry, thanks for the correction!

I was in Hungary once, very late at night, in the middle of nowhere (long story), about 20 years ago. Ended up in the back of a police van. Turned out they just wanted to shake me down for money. Made the universal gesture of rubbing fingers. Showed him my wallet - empty. Very mad. Gave me a piece of paper in about 15 languages that said I was permanently banned from entering Hungary and then threw me out of the van.

I saw that solar eclipse from this place in Bulgaria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Beach

I had no trouble w/ the police in any country but the train conductor wanted a bribe upon entering Romania and we wound up spending an extra night in a small town because the train schedules were screwed up thanks to the war in Yugoslavia. Instead of staying in a hotel we spent that night on our feet talking to some kid who was making fun of our Romanian money and then I passed out when I drank a 7-up after getting out of a hot and crowded train in Varna.

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