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Comment by formvoltron | Hacker News Reader

As an American who has had plenty of disagreement with acts of violence by my government in the past, I have to say I have more sympathy for a Russian who is in this position now. Even in democracies, marching in anti-war protests and voting for anti-war candidates at the next election doesn't always seem to have much impact on the government's behavior, at least in the short term.

Russia is an interesting case because.

* their capitol is also their largest city. 10% of all russians live in Moscow. * If just 1 or 2 million of the 11 million people of moscow went downtown to shake keys in protest, something would change. * The protest does not need to immediately change things. Simply it sends a message. And by shaking keys it sends a message of peace but also of dissatisfaction.

And the fact that Moscow people would rather complain than do a simple act of walking downtown together..

* shows that Russian people think that Putin would not use his nukes.

Because if Putin would use his nukes.. isn't walking downtown and shaking your keys a much better outcome!?

This attitude doesn't square with the dense bureaucracy, unavoidable surveillance, and complete monopoly on violence that modern nations hold. Especially in a place like Russia, where "organizing" is nearly impossible because opposition leaders have a bad habit of accidentally eating plutonium and nerve agents.

If people want to be corralled like sheep, then those corralling them will only be encouraged to do more.

Doing nothing as a Russian means. 1. Being OK with Russians randomly sending missiles into apartment buildings in Ukraine 2. Being OK with wheat prices jumping 50 or 100% causing food shortages and starvation around the world 3. Possible nuclear war.

Whereas if 1 or 2 million Muskovites simply walk downtown and shake their keys, then almost certainly almost none of them would have any problem at all.

Maybe just the football fans of Moscow could do this? Otherwise, your team will only be playing Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan for a while.

It has been far easier to protest against Putin than most of the prior Soviet regime (except for the very end of the USSR).

So far as we know Putin does not yet operate massive extermination camps and labor gulags as in the prior USSR. He is not yet rounding up and exterminating large groups of the population.

Putin is meek compared to Stalin.

The apologist complaints I'm seeing in regards to Russia and protesting, is that there is a cost to going against Putin. Yes, there certainly is. Of course there is. And there's a cost in Ukrainian blood in not, a cost the Russian people are responsible for.

The Russian people don't get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't get to enjoy the prior good times (relatively speaking) under Putin, cheering him and his ways on when it was convenient, and then not get credit for the blood Putin is spilling in their name now. This machine Putin has built is also partially their responsibility.

A lot of Russians may have to die to stop Putin. That's their responsibility to shoulder for tolerating Putin's regime from the early days when he promptly began committing war crimes and robbing the Russian people of human rights. Or the majority can keep doing nothing and it might keep getting worse, keep getting harder to remove him, and he might move into Stalin mode and start genociding groups he dislikes.

“ Another reason we don't like Russians is”

And that’s how wars are maintained. They vs us. Who is we?? How can you dislike millions of people just because they were born inside a border different than yours?

Being born inside a different border doesn't make you a bad person. The beliefs you hold can however.

Russia's culture is directly responsible for what's happening.

How can I possibly dislike a culture of xenophobia, racism, ethnic superiority, conquest lust, power & might as right, advocation of government as a vehicle for conquering, and the use of force as the highest ideal?

I'm speaking of the German region ~1890-1930, which very aggressively espoused and supported such ideas, many millions of people believed similarly to what the Nazi regime ended up codifying as its core ideas. Which had predictable end results. Yes, I can dislike very large numbers of people that hold such ideas, properly so in fact.

How can you dislike hundreds of thousands of racists in southern states circa 1950? Oh quite easily and entirely rationally.

You can dislike evil aspects of a culture. And you can properly dislike people that hold evil ideas, particularly to the extent they're important ideas that shape a big part of who a person is and or help to enable large movements of evil. That goes for the US, just as it does Russia, just as it does for anywhere else. And you can hold people morally responsible for the ideas they choose to believe in and the consequences that those beliefs have when they touch the real world in action.

I actually don't have a problem with Russians.

Just that as they right now should be walking into Moscow to show their discontent, then I am performing my discontent by not liking Russians, right now.

I’m going to throw in a rhetorical question. If you expect Russians to be walking into Moscow to show their discontent, shouldn’t you be shouting slogans and holding a placard at the nearest Russian embassy to show you’re equally serious?

So will you send all the north korean refugees back to fight their dictator?

That's easy to say for people on the outside. Russians who want change can influence one another, build up awareness, but standing in front of tanks will just most likely lead to pulverization

and it's not like russians are strangers to popular uprising, but the trauma of the fall of the soviet empire has a poisonous influence not just on the old generations

Yes I realize it would be hard for them. But who else on the planet has a better chance?

The reality is that everyone is paying these sanction costs. Europe and US companies too. Even poor people in Morocco will pay the costs in the form of increased food costs or food scarcity.

Russians seem to want a get out of jail for free card, but that would not be fair at all.

When you organise against Putin the state swiftly organises against you. There are plenty of examples of those who try to resist being jailed or murdered. I do not blame your average Russian for keeping their head down and deciding its safer to just try to get by.

I am quite demotivated at the idea any meaningful change can be effected in my home country, which is technically a well-functioning democracy that doesn’t actively persecute the population at large[0]. If there was also the threat of violence against me or my family for being politically involved, my motivation would drop off altogether.

[0] = the UK does have bizarre fixation on its Muslim population, one example being the story covered by the recent Trojan Horse Affair podcast

try blaming people born in North Korea, maybe if they are sanctioned and hated more they stop "voting" for kim jong un?

See what I mean. Now you are comparing your situation to North Korea. I doubt you have it as hard as that. Just gather people together, go the central square, and shake keys.

They don't have enough jails to hold everyone.

it's not North Korea YET, but it's pretty damn close right now. Remember Belarus protests a year ago, Lukashenko lost the vote by something like 95%. Almost everyone went to protest against Lukashenko, but because he holds on military the protests couldn't do anything. When it comes to how much military Putin has, Lukashenko is not even close.

Lukashenko & Belarus is different than Russia because in Belarus, it is all the people vs the Lukashenko regime PLUS Putin's regime.

In Moscow there is no foreign influencer. It is 11 million Muskovites vs the Kremlin. Who would win that battle?

Even just 2 million people shaking their keys would send a message that Putin needs to change course.

Why would two million people shaking keys be more impactful than the sanctions that have already devastated Russia's economy?

I don't particularly disagree with your stance, but I'm not convinced Russian protests will change anything more than external protests via sanctions have.

I still agree that Russians should be protesting anyway. Ukrainians are literally bleeding to death in their streets for Russian aggression, and anybody in Russia today should be protesting unless they support that.

You can make that argument for any repressive country and regime. Why do North Koreans not rise up? There is not much difference between Russia, Belarus and North Korea with regards to brainwashing of population and repression.

Can’t have an autocracy without the willing participation of apathetic citizens.

>they are afraid to stand up to their own government

I think you are not aware on how authoritarian regimes work and relates to those trying to oppose.

History has shown time and time again that they don't deal well with a million or more of their own citizens having a peaceful protest.

I believe this as well, but it's not always cut and dry. To take down a government requires organization and cooperation amongst entities. Some regimes, like North Korea, effectively make cooperation and organization impossible. They snuff out the revolution before it ever starts. If there is ever going to be a Russian opposition to Putin that is actually strong enough to take him down, it will likely start in a different country.

> Another reason we don't like Russians is that they are afraid to stand up to their own government.

What about billions of Chinese that are afraid to stand up to the communist party?

Billions of Chinese? The PRC only has 1.4 billion people or so.

>You are Russian and therefore you are responsible for your government's actions.

Imho that works in democracies, not dictatorships. Putin is holding Russians hostage.

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