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Would recommend a sober look in the mirror as well as maybe getting a copy of Chris Hedges "War is a force that gives us meaning". The "there are no innocence in war" is a textbook warcry right out of conflicts like Yugoslav one. Its the tactical dehumanization of the enemy. To have a one dimensional caricature to rally people against. Its what makes it logical to escalate the conflict to ethnic cleansing. Its great for polarization after all and you get people to join you who would never associated with you in the first place. It even works in prisons. And its absolutely horrible. And has the additional benefit of whitewashing yourself, after all, nobody is innocent.
Lets call your post for what it is, its warmongering. And the fact that you are rightfully outraged doesnt change that. What you are doing is creating and perpetuating a narrative that sets the stage for atrocities against the civilian population. They are all guilty after all, so you get to be as well.
I am honestly shocked that people dont get that there is a whole lot of room to escalate from where we are now. And i am very much afraid that people dont grasp that. Or worse, they do but prefer to embrace their emotional reaction on the topic. Or take it out of a strategic calculation. But at the end the malice or stupidity spetrum is completely irrelevant. It all has the same result.
When big power structures collide the vast vast vaasst majority of the affected are nothing, not even pawns, not even innocent, since the question makes almost no sense.
It sucks, but the world is connected and finite, this leads to a lot of the issues we see at these times.
Only thing I regret that they didn't suffer enough to withdraw troops from my country. Stomach problems hardly compare to ruined cities and lives lost. Screw Russia and your rhetoric.
Now then, what you said.
Do you also hold that against all the Germans when they started both World War 1, and World War 2? They did nothing. There was no resistance movement within Austria or Germany of any significance to stop their war machines. People where complacent. How did they get away with it? Would you let Russians also get away with it, if they say they are sorry and have changed?
You are misinformed: They didn't.
> and World War 2?
Germany was collectivel de-Nazified after that, so yes: That obviously was held against all Germans at the time.
> Would you let Russians also get away with it, if they say they are sorry and have changed?
So, no. Why should they get away with it so easily when the Germans didn't?
Is this the propaganda you're talking about? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
Or maybe the Russians have hacked the official Twitter account of the National Guard of Ukraine to post this vile racist shit https://twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497
That said, there's no justification for the Nazi crap.
But more to the point, if it's such a small force why is part of the National Guard of Ukraine. Disband it and send the members suspected of war crimes to stand trial at The Hague. I'm sure a nation looking to join the EU would have no problems doing that.
edit: Also something that's bothering me...what do you mean they are "explicitly neo-Nazi"? Is that somehow different to being a Nazi in your mind? Weird thing to point out...
Just looks at their crimes at Wikipedia:
> On 11 August, Azov battalion, backed by Ukrainian paratroopers, captured Marinka from pro-Russian rebels and entered the suburbs of Donetsk clashing with Donetsk People's Republic fighters.
They're killing Russians.
> In early September 2014, the Azov battalion was engaged in the Second Battle of Mariupol. Regarding the ceasefire agreed on 5 September, Biletskiy stated: "If it was a tactical move there is nothing wrong with it ... if it's an attempt to reach an agreement concerning Ukrainian soil with separatists then obviously it's a betrayal."
They don't believe Russians.
> As of late March 2015, despite a second ceasefire agreement (Minsk II), the Azov Battalion continued to prepare for war, with the group's leader seeing the ceasefire as "appeasement".
They don't believe Russians.
> In March 2015 Interior Minister Arsen Avakov announced that the Azov Regiment would be among the first units to be trained by United States Army troops in their Operation Fearless Guardian training mission.
They cooperate with US.
> According to Minsk Ceasefire Agreements, foreign fighters are not allowed to serve in Ukraine's military. Despite the Minsk Ceasefire Agreements, the regiment still has foreign fighters, including an ex-British army serviceman Chris Garrett and a 33-year-old former soldier of the Greek army and French Foreign Legion known by the nom-de-guerre of "The Greek".
They allow British and French to kill Russians.
And so on.
Nothing you wrote is the tiniest evidence that they are nazis, completely besides the point.
Doesn't change the fact though that they certainly are self-identifying Nazi, in a sad perversion of "the enemy of the enemy is my friend"
Perhaps they are falling to the same misperception you seem to fall to, equating nazism with "against Russia". Tell that to a Frenchman, tell that to a Pole. Tell that to a Jew of any nationality. No, actual Nazism was not "against Russians". That wasn't part of their identity at all. Actual Nazis literally didn't give a shit about Russians in specific, they just wanted the land and the people currently on it happened to be Russians. But they would have tried exactly the same on any other ethnicity.
Are you member of Azov regiment or know them personally? If not, then list your arguments, please.
For Russians, anybody who is strong and against RF (or is ally of US) is Nazi, including Jews. It's like a gold medal for the enemy of RF.
What lead me to that claim: Just eight years of sometimes watching from afar (very far) and initially being quite confused by the occasional evidence (or what seemed like it?). Eventually I came to assume that they were effectively taught "from the same schoolbooks" (maybe not literally, but who knows) this Russian misappropriation of the term nazi and then simply applied logic: "if I'm against Russia then I guess I'm a nazi, heil whatever that guy was called!"
Quite unlikely (understatement!) that they actually are out to build a fourth reich and work on an Endlösung. I wrote "self-identify", not "are": I'm German and we like to think that we know a thing or two about actual nazism. But I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally some poor chap fell too deep into the ideological rabbit hole and inadvertently produced propaganda ammunition for Putinists. I suspect that the propaganda battle might be going much less bad for Putinists if the Ukraine was led by someone not quite as immune to being called a nazi (I guess bookies stopped taking bets for Time Person of the Year already?)
When a different word is appropriate, then I'll use it.
> Not everything is 'whataboutism'.
No, but your comment was.
> But more to the point, if it's such a small force why is part of the National Guard of Ukraine.
Because they were very effective fighters.
> Disband it
I hope they do.
> and send the members suspected of war crimes to stand trial at The Hague.
This is what should happen to anyone suspected of war crimes. No qualification is needed.
> what do you mean they are "explicitly neo-Nazi"? Is that somehow different to being a Nazi in your mind? Weird thing to point out...
No it's not. Neo-Nazi is the accepted term since the National Socialist part of Germany no longer exists. They're new Nazis. It's right there in the word.
And it's explicit because they use symbols the Nazis used and they call themselves Nazis.
How? I don't remember saying the invasion is justified. I was addressing the claims of propaganda.
This is why it's so important right now to help Ukraine and hinder Putin.
Well, it's yet another reason why it's so important right now to help Ukraine and hinder Putin. Seems a bit shallow to put self-redemption as the first (or even worse, only) one.
But the sanctions are meant to make people angry, go out and send a strong signal to their leaders they want a change. This is the most the West can do.
For some reason unknown, Ukrainians believe so which resulted in that atrocious situation where both the US and European countries are not willing to step in and protect Ukraine. Even Zelensky himself had high hopes for that, based on what he said a few days ago.
Both US & EU are lending tremendous support in materials, training (over the past 8 years), and coordinated economic sanctions far beyond what anyone would have predicted. Sounds like Europe is also offering energy grid support soon.
What those countries will not do is directly intervene using their own military forces – Ukrainians would have to be crazy to ever expect that. Two nuclear-armed powers in direct conflict on the battlefield = nuclear holocaust. You could say that's merely conventional wisdom based on wargames and other geopolitical assumptions, but... does anyone really want to test that theory??
All countries are equal, but some are a bit more, right? I agree 100% that awful things done by one country do not justify in any way atrocious actions in another. That said, for some reason most people to decide to pick a side very quickly blaming all the world evil on one person and country.
Frankly speaking, the USA, EU, Ukraine share the same amount of blame for what is happening now. You are right, it was Putin not anyone else who made the decision to invade Ukraine, but things are more complicated here than the world is now preferring to see.
But you blame the victim anyway.
> Frankly speaking, the USA, EU, Ukraine share the same amount of blame for what is happening now.
Protests in Russia are significant, for a regime that punished protest so harshly and responds to it otherwise so little.