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Comment by achikin | Hacker News Reader

Most of the EU countries has stopped issuing visas. We’re really stuck between two equally hostile political forces pursuing their interests.

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>We’re really stuck between two equally hostile political forces pursuing their interests at any cost.

I know. It's awful. If we can't get Russia to stop attacking Ukraine with bombs, tanks, guns and missiles, perhaps we could convince the EU to stop bombing Ukraine? Oh, wait...

Or we can prevent ordinary Russians from leaving the country ruining their economy at the same time, pushing them into the civil war …

One of these things is not like the others.

Invading a country != denying visas to citizens of a country that's doing the invading.

Stay where you are and you may be murdered by an invading force != stay where you are and deal with the results of sanctions.

Both are definitely bad, but they are in no way equivalent.

As I have said in the comment below - for the ordinary Russian people which have nothing to do with the invasion the consequences are equally bad from the both sides.

such a claim is tantamount to saying ordinary Russian people are sociopaths who only value things in terms of how it affects them

I do not think that is the case

they're people, just like everyone else, and your ordinary person can obviously tell which of the two aforementioned scenarios is way, way, way worse than the other

No. Not "equally" hostile AT ALL

Here you can see how effective propaganda is. Even when the facts are there for all to see it still work to a degree that people will take those memes and spit them back out as their own.

"Equally hostile"? Seriously?

I can understand. You are comparing the situations in the both countries from the outside and situation in the Ukraine is much worse. But from the inside I have to face severe consequences from the both sides for what I haven't done, don't support and essentially have nothing to do with.

OK, I see what you mean.

What is severe about switching registrars for you?

I know the other sanctions are extremely painful for the Russian people, but I think of it like this: you are the victim of an economic war, and it is the alternative to a physical war, where you would be bombed to death.

I would say that both sides of the pain you're feeling (from NATO and from Russia) are both Putin's fault.

For my personal perspective, I do have empathy for you (genuinely), but I still wholeheartedly support the forced deterioration of your economy if it either contributes to regime change or reduces your country's ability to wage conventional war (and I believe at least one of those outcomes is a plausible consequence).

Deterioration of the economy usually leads to more war even more quickly. You can take Germany after the WWI as an example. Positive regime changes are only possible in the stable economical situation. Take me as an example - at the moment I do programming for a living. Let’s imagine I’m cut off of all the tools, customers and equipment. What would I do? I’ll probably have to work for the regime which will become the only source of the income, will get much smaller wage, work longer hours and have much less resources and influence to change the situation. We went through all this during the Soviet Union times. Such regimes benefit a lot from the isolation which allows them to turn people into slaves essentially. The idea that you can improve anything by harming people never works. Putin’s propaganda is using the same argument- they claim that they fight in the Ukraine to improve the situation in the region. I doubt you believe that.

If Russia were to be forced into an isolationist command economy as you describe I would surmise that, much like the Soviet Union, its influence and relative threat to the rest of the world would deteriorate over time, maybe leading to a similar internal collapse. For your and the world's sake I don't want that outcome, but I'd nonetheless take it over its current status as a relatively more robust economy helmed by an aggressive and violent expansionist.

Well if you want to get rid of the robust violent regimes that engage in war outside of their borders than you should start with the US. They have been involved in much more conflicts and killed much more civilian people all over the world than Russia.

So how do you recommend that the rest of the world support Ukraine's effort to not be swallowed up and pillaged by a neighboring country?

Direct military intervention is the only way to save Ukraine at this moment. Massive deployment of NATO troops near Lviv, no-fly zone etc. Given the inflow of refugees, EU can rightfully claim that the war is causing economic damage to it and intervene on humanitarian grounds. We are looking into Syrian scenario unfortunately.

Deterioration of the economy in times of peace favors war, but deterioration when war is already committed to is a valid tool to the aim of ending the war by destroying the ability to project force. This is not the same aim as sanctions in peacetime.

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