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Comment by vailripper | Hacker News Reader

I don't understand this:"The iPad is a credible laptop replacement for many people and with iCloud and another year or two of hardware improvements, that’s going to be true for more and more people. The Kindle Fire is a laptop replacement for almost no one. It’s a peripheral, not a second computer and it’s priced accordingly. " What is it that makes the iPad a possible laptop replacement, but the Fire not? To me, the primary market for people replacing laptops with a tablet are casual users, many of whom care more about content and entertainment than producitivity, in which case it would seem the Fire would be equal to, if not beating, the iPad.

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Marketing, screen size and apps. Amazon for now, as far as I can tell, is positioning it as a "Amazon content consumption device" instead of a "lifestyle companion".

Mind you, I don't disagree. I think you'd have to be a little ridiculous to own both a Fire and an iPad, and a 10inch Fire is likely inevitable in a couple of years. On the other hand, I'm about to buy the old Kindle and am aiming to maybe purchase an iPad3 down the road.

I love this because it gives Apple competition. Finally, a viable tablet competitor.

10 inch model is rumored next year. Also Amazon hinted that one will be coming.

I love the Kindle, and I've already pre-ordered the Fire, but I can't see how it's a decent laptop replacement compared to the iPad. First off, there's no 3G, which is one of the major reasons people like using the iPad as a portable computing device. Also, while it does have a browser and email clients, I'm guessing it won't have nearly the level of support from Exchange and other corporate email systems that the iPad does. Beyond that, I doubt it's going to have any of the "Office" type functions (besides maybe working with Google Apps) that the iPad has via the iWork suite.

Amazon's not position the Fire as a computer replacement, and they're not really providing the components necessary to use it that way. Apple clearly views the iPad as a a laptop alternative for either ultra mobile, or casual, users.

From what I've heard, the iPad WiFi models outsell the 3G models, so it can't be that important. Also, the premium you pay for 3G is more than half of what the entire Fire costs. (And for that matter, the 3G iPad premium fee is also just $9 less than the entire 3G Kindle, which shows you how much of a rip Apple's 3G premium is.)

Old school Kindle 3G usage is minimal, though. Downloading books, awkward web browsing.

iPad 3G usage is a whole different thing.

The iPad is not a laptop killer for people who want to be productive on it. Period.

If they want to make the iPad a laptop killer, they first need to make it more like Asus's Transformer, with a keyboard dock, and second, they need to get more apps on iOS that can replace people's need for Windows apps.

In fairness, "productive" is highly domain-specific. If your version of that is something like reading legal briefs, or drawing free-hand sketches, or collecting survey results from passersby, an iPad could be very productive indeed.

"If they want to make the iPad a laptop killer, they first need to make it more like Asus's Transformer, with a keyboard dock"

Not only does Apple actually make a keyboard dock: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC533LL/B?fnode=MTc0MjU4Nj... but the iPad can also connect to a Bluetooth keyboard, which I've actually used in the past.

"and second, they need to get more apps on iOS that can replace people's need for Windows apps."

They've obviously released some with the iWork suite. There's also simple text editors (and more sophisticated ones, but I'm not a fan). I can easily see the iPad as a laptop killer for some.

>they first need to make it more like Asus's Transformer, with a keyboard dock

These already exist from Zagg and Logitech.

>they need to get more apps on iOS that can replace people's need for Windows apps

This takes time. Hardware and software will progress to allow this.

What is it that makes the iPad a possible laptop replacement, but the Fire not?

I don't think the iPad is that much more a real laptop replacement than the Fire. I think people bill it as one to themselves to help justify paying for an iPad.

The screen size is important. If you've tried to use the web on a nook its lucky to be an average experience, generally its actually pretty horrible as its so small. The iPad as a slightly better experience due to size alone, but even still I don't like using safari.

Anecdotally most people I know with iPads have stopped using laptops outright. Disclaimer here that the majority of owners are older.

The interesting thing to see is how the Silk browser addresses the issue of terrible web experience on small screens.

The Kindle Fire has nearly the same resolution as the iPad--1024x768 for the iPad and 1024x600 for the Fire. The Fire is higher res (because it's smaller) so text will appear sharper. There is simply no reason that the iPad is a laptop replacement but the Fire is not.

In fact, there is a good reason that it would be the other way around--the iPad requires a computer but the Fire does not. Open an iPad up new in box and you'll need to find a copy of iTunes to use it. The system requirements for the Fire? "None, because it's wireless and doesn't require a computer."

Its not the resolution thats the issue, its the actual physical size thats the problem. The iPhone 4 is 960x640, not too far behind either device pixel wise. But the 3" screen or what ever it is where the problem is.

The tethering is a thing off the past as of next week, its a legacy thing that was left over due to the evolution of the product range.

I also think the iPad requiring hooking up to a computer is an odd requirement, but a) any Apple Store will do that step for you and b) I expect it to go away now that iOS 5 has over-the-air patching.

"... so text will appear sharper..."

It will also appear smaller. Much smaller. And the Fire requires Amazon. So instead of being tied to a computer you are tied to a website.

Why would it appear smaller unless Amazon wanted it to be? It will just appear sharper at smaller sizes. My iPhone is much smaller than either device and has much higher resolution (326ppi!). Text looks great and is sized just fine.

> -the iPad requires a computer

may not be true for long

It's not so much a real laptop replacement as it is a "computing device while on the go". Whereas four years ago you'd get a netbook, now… you kind of need a good reason not to get an iPad/Fire.

It's a subset of computing. I have my main work laptop, which I'm not going to take camping or up to the cottage. In this space, a tablet is perfect but we used to settle for a "meh laptop".

What you say would be very astute, if the iPad price range was not $500-800, compared to the $380 I paid for a relatively high-end dual-core netbook with discrete graphics not 6 months ago, or the $300 I paid for a middle-of-the-road dual-core netbook for my parents.

I also really needed a keyboard, but that's not even the main issue.

<I also really needed a keyboard, but that's not even the main issue

Well, considering the iPad lacks a keyboard, I'd say that's a pretty big issue at least.

>for my parents.

PERSONALLY, I would happily pay the premium if it means I never have to field a support call ever again.

Tradeoffs! Also your parents might not appreciate playing games or watching movies on the couch as much as other people might, yadda yadda.

This line of thinking ("netbooks offer more capability for less money") makes sense to some customers, but not to many others: Apple is predicted to sell ~40 million iPads this year.

That does not imply that: 1) those same people would have bought a netbook had the iPad never come out and 2) those people view it as a laptop replacement.

I need a good reason to buy a netbook over an iPad? A proper SSH/NX client, full keyboard, full (and choice of) operating system, input/output ports, all for less money?

You're a small, if not tiny, segment of the market. Most of the market doesn't even know what SSH is, let alone require a SSH client in a portable device.

And most people don't produce content on their personal computers, yet this thread screams of people scrambling to justify the purchase of $500-$600 devices that are built to consume primarily and I suggest near exclusively (and dismiss the Kindle Fire because it makes no bones about being media-based). There is this auspice of them being used as "productivity tools" but I can only think of rare occasions where I would agree and they're very highly specialized apps where again, a cheap commodity ARM device could be produced, run Linux and run the application just as easily without major costs to the organizations that are paying Apple an arm and a leg to have a flashy device.

Most people don't produce content? Hello most people are emailing, writing things out on 'Pages' or other Word Processors, perhaps even Google Docs. I don't understand what you mean by most people don't produce content. Hell the iPad has two cameras which product content.

You can get SSH clients for iPad. If you need a keyboard, Apple sells one for the iPad and they and several other manufacturers make bluetooth keyboards that are perfectly adequate.

I chose not to go that route because I wanted more power and storage. But it was definitely under consideration.

Most of the world doesn't need an ssh client, they hardly type much at all, don't care that they can put uber-linux 2.8.7.rockin-beta.rc18 on it, never hook anything more than a camera up to it and, well, yes, there is the money bit.

I'm a developer and the last thing I want when i'm relaxing on the couch, on a trip, etc. is a laptop that gets hot, has a tiny screen, and has a horrible form factor for consuming the tubes. The Fire is a credible alternative for most of that with the possible exception of casual gaming (which i love to do).

I have to disagree with you on form factor while sitting. I find a laptop better than or equal (larger screen + supports itself at a wide range of viewing angles)

It's all personal preference. I hate the laptop form factor in general, but once you add the heat they put off it's a deal breaker for me.

No, no, you misunderstand me. Tablets are absolutely superb at consuming content. I make no bones about that. I have an Android phone that is used almost exclusively for consuming content and I picked up a TouchPad to surf the web with on my balcony. I just don't get the people here trying to act as if they're productive with their iPad in a way that is impossible to do on the Fire.

Misunderstanding reconciled!

I think "laptop replacement" isn't talking about me and you, it's talking about my mom who spends all her time on facebook or email and casual games and doesn't do a whole lot of other things.

I can use google docs on my iPad, I can type emails, I can consume. That's about all 80% of home computer users need generally, so that's why it's a laptop replacement. Not sure you'll have a lot of luck making a presentation on a Fire or updating a spreadsheet, but those things are doable on an ipad even if they are a little cumbersome. (80% obviously made up!)

That doesn't make any sense. If people had a hard time justifying purchasing an iPad, it wouldn't be the astounding success that it is.

Of the 10-or-so iPad users I know (all from different industries), about half of them use it as a replacement for a laptop, but not necessarily as a desktop replacement.

Anecdotal, yes, but compelling in that those it's a replacement solution for have been strongest in their iPad evangelism.

You don't understand because it's bullshit from a notoriously biased source. The iPad is high end, Fire is low end. But if the iPad "replaces laptops" so will the Fire. There's no argument.

Here's an argument:

Newegg offers 127 netbooks.

Newegg offers 2 netbooks with a screen under 9 inches, 1 with a screen under 8 inches.

Netbooks are also constrained by a usable keyboard size, and when you've made the machine that big, might as well put in the same size screen.

Well, the iPad has many more apps (at least for the moment) and a bigger screen, both of which make it more suitable for light-to-medium work stuff.

For example, I can perfectly imagine (and there are many cases of this) a college student passing up on buying a laptop for class and opt for an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard instead. In this scenario, this setup can effectively replace a computer for most students most of the time.

However, I don't see how a kindle fire can fit into that context.

How does one type on a seven-inch tablet? Typing on the iPad is bad enough, but at least its long dimension is about the right size.

Presumably typing on a seven-inch tablet is reminiscent of typing on the iPad in portrait mode. Which is annoying. To the point where I'd rather type on the iPhone, where at least I can reach everything with thumbs alone.

There are Swype, SlideIT and ShapeWriter sliding inputs available for Android devices that you can't get for iOS devices. I use the (unfortunately discontinued) ShapeWriter on my Desire phone, and it's awesome. The keyboard for the iPad is a chore to use.

Also, an iPad has a camera and mic - which makes it a viable option for keeping in touch with people. Video calling is something you expect to do from your computer today.

Why would the Fire beat the iPad for "people who care more about content and entertainment"?

Aren't these the people who want the bigger screens, better graphics, cameras, longer battery life? I guess there's price but that didn't seem to be the argument you were making.

I agree with your larger sentiment, the Fire should be a laptop replacement for some people. Heck I think the smartphone is a laptop replacement for some (smaller amount of) people. I guess Gruber is arguing that fire-laptop group to be a rounding error. I don't have any confidence either way.

What is it? It's raw, unfiltered bias of course.

There's very little reason why the Kindle Fire won't be a strong iPad competitor. Tablets are primarily used for browsing, reading, and casual gaming. It seems like Kindle Fire will succeed in hitting each one of those bullet points.

Did you even read the article? He's very complimentary of everything Amazon's doing here.

Leave it to HN to zero in on the one critical thing he says and blow it up as HUGE BIAS TYPICAL GRUBER FANBOY.

Yes, he's complimentary, but as someone who often agrees with Gruber, even I found that part a little jarring. I think he's mostly right on this one, but if anything, too conservative about the potential for the Fire.

Sure, he's very complimentary, in an "imma let you finish, but the iPad is the best laptop replacement of ALL TIME!" sort of way, which is to say rather derogatory at the same time. He tries to place the iPad and the Fire as distinctly different products serving distinctly different market segments: the iPad as the high-end "laptop replacement" the Kindle Fire as the low-end, low-cost, blue collar, half-assed substitute which lures users into buying it through content delivery rather than device or experience excellence.

That's not terribly complimentary when you boil it down. My take is that the Fire, keeping in mind this is a 1st gen product too, is a quite suitable iPad competitor head-to-head. It will provide a high-quality browsing experience similar or superior to the iPad and it will provide a high-quality e-book reading experience similar or superior to the iPad. The Fire's lack of dependence on any sort of syncing with a PC is also a point where the experience is outright superior. The biggest difference is the size and perhaps the hardware / performance / efficiency, personally I don't think there's an objective reason to pick one or the other as obviously superior in this category. Perhaps an 11" screen is vastly preferred to a 7" screen, perhaps both are suitable, perhaps the 7" is more preferred, I don't know, and it's too soon to tell how well the Fire will stack up against the iPad performance wise. The other big difference is the app/game ecosystem. The iPad definitely has a head start and there are plenty of popular games and apps that are iOS only at the moment, but to be honest I don't think that network effect is big enough to drive the market a whole hell of a lot at the moment, especially in the face of a $300 premium on the iPad. The Fire doesn't have 3G, but it remains to be seen how important that is.

Overall, I think the Kindle Fire is a pretty strong competitor to the iPad, regardless of price. As I said, I think many people will find it to be a decent laptop replacement. Moreover, I think over the next year or so there are going to be a lot of moments where people who bought Kindle Fire's at or near launch will be having experiences that will make a lot of iPad 2 owners jealous.

"Sure, he's very complimentary, in an "imma let you finish, but the iPad is the best laptop replacement of ALL TIME!" sort of way, which is to say rather derogatory at the same time."

This is nonsense. It's a 21 paragraph, 1500 word piece and he spends exactly one on "laptop replacement", you're clearly the one hung up on those two sentences.

"He tries to place the iPad and the Fire as distinctly different products serving distinctly different market segments"

No he says they're attacking the market from different ends. Consumers in the middle would clearly have to choose between one or the other. That's distinctly different :p from what you're saying.

"That's not terribly complimentary when you boil it down."

Did you read the other 20 paragraphs? The article on the whole is very complimentary of Amazon's effort, his experience with the e-ink Kindle, even the ads (a lot of people seem up in arms that Amazon's keynote prices are for the ad-supported versions, compare Marco.org).

He has a lot of very nice things to say, certainly, but the actionable thing he says is the most derogatory. How can the Fire and the iPad both service the same market if one is a laptop replacement and the other is not?

Yes he dresses it up with a lot of really nice sounding verbiage, but at the end of the day this is a "well, she's really good at {math,sports,engineering}... for a girl" sort of backhanded compliment. It's like saying that the Model T is a really, really nice car, almost as good as a Hispano-Suiza... but it's not a horse replacement.

I still can't figure out why you're hung up on this 'laptop replacement' thing as though he dropped trou and took a dump on right on the Kindle Fire itself by saying that. It's not a huge derogatory criticism, it's an observation. You're certainly free to disagree, I do as well somewhat (below) but you're massively missing the point if you think two sentences about laptop replacement is the only "actionable thing he says" and that it's derogatory.

My wife hasn't picked up a laptop since we got the iPad at Christmas. She uses the iPad daily. More than I do. And she's the one who gave it to me. Meanwhile, I have a MacBook and a Cr-48 and use them both daily. I also have a TouchPad that neither of us use. (tangent: I really hope cyanogen mods gets ice-cream sandwich running on touchpad).

It's certainly possible for it to be a laptop replacement but I don't think it's ideal with a 7" screen and aspect ratio. The shape of this device lends itself to be used more towards consumption of content.

What is it that makes the iPad a possible laptop replacement, but the Fire not?

The iPad has an SDK and app store. The Kindle has an SDK that's been in closed beta for something like two years and a bookstore that also happens to sell apps from a handful of companies.

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