Comment by nhashem | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nhashem | Hacker News Reader

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I hate ties and collared shirts in general. Any wedding or other formal event where I have to wear a suit, I'm constantly tugging at my neck and ripping off my tie within 5 seconds of getting back in my car to drive home after the event. I have no idea why Steve Jobs wore his ubiquitous turtleneck, but I'd like to think the fact that it was a lot more comfortable than a shirt and tie was one of the reasons.

Also if I'm at any sort of business or social event and someone is comes up to me and says something like: "Hey bro, I've been sitting on this great idea for a startup that I came with when I got my MBA at Oswego College, and I need a cofounder. Here, sign this NDA and I can tell you about it. Okay fine, don't sign the NDA, bro. It's called 'Fratastic.com,' it's like frat-oriented humor videos. It's gonna totally be the next youtube, it's ridiculous how much money it's gonna make, bro. I have the domain name and everything, I just need someone to actually do all the coding and I'll do the marketing, bro. How does 4% equity sound to you?"

... well, that person is almost always wearing a shirt, coat, and tie.

So why would I want to dress up beyond a t-shirt and jeans? It makes me uncomfortable, it has nothing to do with my production, technical or otherwise, and I'm less likely to be associated with the expensively educated clueless douchebag I described above.

Also, I know a lot of hackers who do go to the gym or otherwise keep active and look just fine in a t-shirt.

I think he's not necessarily arguing against t-shirt and jeans (despite his claim that the "days of t-shirt and hoodies are over" - this may be an east coast thing?), but that fit matters. Just because you're writing code doesn't mean you have to wear the ratty black t-shirt that you haven't washed in weeks and the ripped jeans that you bought in high school.

I know that, like with the "frat boy" you described, there are also stereotypes with the stereotypical programmer in the black shirt with the stupid text on it. How do those people make you feel?

Chances are if your tie/dress shirt makes you feel uncomfortable, you bought the wrong size. Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist.

Can't you just accept that some people simply don't like the look?

I own a a single silk tie and one nice dress shirt. I never wear them unless business needs require it. I don't even have a suit that still fits. I'm normally dressed in a T-shirt/collared shirt and either jeans or slacks -- IIRC, that's what I got married in! My clothes fit properly, they're simple, (I usually only wear solid colors) clean and comfortable. As far as I'm concerned, I'm well dressed, if informal. What exactly is wrong with that?

If it fits well, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm just trying to get fellow developers to move beyond the T-shirt/hoodie uniform.

You managed to be pretty condescending about it:

* You used the language of "better", not "different", of "honest self-improvement" and "challenging yourself", leaving implications hanging about people who decide not to do these things

* You literally say you can't see an "excuse" for developers not to dress differently.

* "You're building the future, so dress like it" (also note that in addition to being condescending, this is also an ineffective rhetorical strategy, since it begs the answer "we are dressing like it, dude")

* You argue that most hackers can't wear their single most common article of clothing because of body type.

You reference _Put This On_ twice in your post. _Put This On_ is, not to put too fine a point on it, a hobbyist blog. These are people who spend their weekends at thrift shops hunting for specific brands of clothes. It's also a blog that routinely finds ways to write takedowns of celebs who clearly spend time and effort dressing themselves; the blog advocates a distinctive style. I read and enjoy _Put This On_ (they're great writers), but you might concern yourself with the fact that you're effectively inflicting your hobby on other people.

In a previous life, I was a consultant/contractor at a very large enterprise. Despite the whole outfit being business casual, I wore a suit every day of the long span that I worked there.

It had a dramatic effect on the people that I worked with. It changed the conversation. It was at least faintly intimidating to those I worked with. Now, times are different, and we are

So there are some occasions that I would do it again. (I mean besides my nephew's wedding.) But amongst developers, it will send the wrong message. It will make you seem like one of the Ross Perot employees where imagination was selectively bred out.

Wearing a suit in most circumstances today will suggest the opposite of technical competence.

This is true. I got a tailored suit and shirts for my wedding. It turns out that dress clothes can be quite comfortable if they fit you. When they're uncomfortable, it's largely because off the rack clothing is designed to be as generic as possible.

Hear hear. Potential metaphors: 1) The difference between healthy tasty food and unhealthy tasty food. "Oh nothing made with <ingredient X such as broccoli> tastes good". Chances are you've just not eaten it prepared well 2) The difference between fast food and a tasty home cooked meal. It takes time and effort to make a home cooked meal which tastes good (usually). Some people would rather just eat crap....it works for them.

Yes, if there were no health implications I would absolutely eat fast food most of the time. 90% of the taste for 10% of the hassle works for me.

Compare: cost of a tailored suit, cost of a pair of jeans and T-shirt.

Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist.

I disagree, at least for off-the-rack clothes. I have a 17.5" neck, and looking at me you wouldn't think I'm a no-neck football player. When I get a fitted shirt that is correct for my neck, it means that I've got to fold in at least 4" extra fabric around my waist. It seems that all clothes here in America assumes that some people are obese, and the rest of the population is merely fat.

I think the only way to get a dress shirt that's anywhere near the right size is to have it tailor-made.

Look for slim fit shirts. I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts. H&M also makes good slim fitting shirts if you're on a budget. In American clothing lingo "extra slim fit" just means "not overweight."

Alternately, have your shirts taken in by a tailor. Most will do it for about $8-12, hardly an imposition for a developer who probably makes 2-3 times that per hour.

I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts.

Holy mackerel! They're $79.50 each!

I'm told they last. With some brands you pay for the label, but with others you're paying for quality. For example, if you buy a pair of $300 shoes from Allen Edmonds and treat them properly you can expect to get 20 years out of them. The concept of disposable clothes is fairly new, and there are still a handful of companies who want to sell you a shirt that lasts.

Honest question. Are you saying "Holy Mackerel", because it's more than you expected or less? $80 for a nice shirt is really a pretty decent price, and many brands cost a lot more.

There are plenty of companies like: http://www.indochino.com/ who will do "made to measure" for reasonable prices (these guys do sales for $50/shirt from time to time).

The equivalent price of three snarky subculture-identification T-shirts.

I've also got a 16.5" and a pretty thin frame. Tailors are your friend and can make miracles.

>Also, I know a lot of hackers who do go to the gym or otherwise keep active and look just fine in a t-shirt.

The way i understood it, that was his point as well. Unless you mean to say "...who don't go to the gym..."

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