Comment by mdp2021 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mdp2021 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

> Agii Apostoli was a picturesque seaside village ... Now it is ringed by towering wind turbines whose night lights and whirring sounds are tantamount to daily "torture", locals say. ... "Wind turbines have been installed on mountain peaks, in forests, near archaeological sites, on islands, in protected habitats" ... "This is torture, we can no longer sleep for the noise"

It is called, in some regions, a "silver bullet", a solution that may look plausible (or is presented as such), but that upon actual consideration involves difficulties, tradeoffs, and feasibility constraints which may be initially hidden.

The noise pollution involved by wind turbines is not into everyone's awareness.

It may be a minor inconvenience for those who live in some metropolitan areas («Noise is so pervasive here that even sirens are set twice as loud», or «I am looking for good noise protecting earmuffs for my newborn for when I will take her around outside» - signed, different friends of yours truly in the Big-C-City), but the unfortunate thing is that they tend to place wind turbines exactly in the conceptually opposite places - the middle of the wilderness, the "deliverance" places.

Infrasounds are weird. They are hard to measure correctly with off the shelf equipment that's usually used for noise complaints and they affect people very differently.

Some people don't notice a constant infrasound at all, others start getting a "dreamy" feeling and a constant feeling of ... something weird. Both of which are really hard to quantify and measure.

There are even studies that kinda sorta link "haunting" with sources of infrasound.

I really wish this article included a recording of the sounds. I have no idea what they sound like and if it would bother me.

I personally love the look of wind farms, but maybe the noise would make me equally as upset as the people in the article.

It's like tinnitus. It's bearable when you get a mild case from a concert and then it goes away.

But when it sticks and you're at your second decade of 24/7 eeeeeeeeeee in your ear, at times it gets to you really bad and you just want to claw your eardrums off.

I got it as a teenager from a cycling accident. It took me 20 years before I was finally able to say to myself "I'm fine with this". It did happen though, and for anyone else suffering it can get easier to deal with given time.

> It took me 20 years before I was finally able to say to myself "I'm fine with this"

This should be enough to enlighten all those who think that "noise is not an issue".

> and for anyone else suffering it can get easier to deal with given time

Unfortunately, no. It may «get easier to deal with given time» - it's not granted, seeing the history of some sufferers.

> would make me equally as upset

You may be unable to tell in advance. There comes a point in which you break and what was "not even perceived", not just "tolerable", before, becomes unbearable later.

You have to consider the constant exposure, and the fluctuation of your resistance, and consider the effect of the burden in the times of lower resistance. The issue is not with the stress of the weight lifted when you are vigorous, but that which will be when you will be weak.

Here's a video with a recording of sound intensity of wind generators (not infrasounds tho)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgN2G9d0dc

An infrasound at 1Hz is essentially a puff of air every second. Open and close a door in a small room and you'll get a pretty strong one.

If it was inherently harmful we wouldn't be able to open a window on any windy day.

Or perhaps there's something hypnotic due to the frequency being so constant?

Wind doesn't pulse at exactly 1Hz for weeks, it also doesn't carry the same frequency over tens of kilometers. [0]

It's easy to handle anything for a while, like a crying child during a 30 minute bus ride. But when the same noise is extended over a 14 hour flight with no way to escape, you'll start to feel it.

Some people handle auditory interruptions better than others. Infrasound, to my knowledge, hasn't been really studied in a cross-field type of way. It's always just engineers doing measurements with meters and drawing graphs. There are very few studies on the psychological effects of man-made infrasound.

[0] https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/201...

And tell me, what do you think would happen if they started building wind turbines in the middle of cities? There is no reason you couldn't fill Central Park in New York with them. Maybe put one on top of every building? You could have thousands of huge turbines powering every city.

I wonder why no one ever seems to suggest that?

Years ago, there was a bit of a fad for small turbines on roofs. However, wind turbine cost efficiency scales positively with size. They also "shade" nearby turbines from the airflow, and the presence of buildings and ground clutter further reduces the efficiency. You may have noticed that it's not as windy in Central Park (or any other park) as it is on the Atlantic coast.

So the optimal wind turbine is (a) extremely large and (b) at sea or near the coast. You get things like this with 100m blades: https://www.ge.com/renewableenergy/wind-energy/offshore-wind...

There is also a little bit of a safety issue. The possibility of losing a 100m blade or part thereof is low, but you wouldn't want that in a city.

(I appreciate the "I don't want that near me" view, but that means that person wants it near someone else? Or some other solution that nobody wants to be near either?)

If it’s in the countryside, it’s being put far away from the people/regions that benefit the most, and closer to those that are undesirably impacted the most.

edit: This was just an observation in response to ""I don't want that near me" view, but that means that person wants it near someone else?"

There's a huge imbalance between the major consumer (cities) and people in the countryside (where the turbines end up).

Installing wind power in cities would make wind power several times more expensive.

- Land in cities is far more expensive than the land where wind farms are currently built, so the electricity costs would be higher.

- Cities are already densely built up so it would be much more difficult to get the long turbine blades delivered for installation, raising costs again.

- Cities have worse wind resources because the built up environment impedes smooth, fast air flow. Turbines built in the middle of cities would generate less electricity over the course of a year, raising cost per kilowatt hour for a third time.

You can't build efficient (megawatt scale) turbines on top of buildings, and little turbines are basically gimmicks that don't supply significant energy. Rooftop solar power generates more energy at lower cost than little rooftop turbines.

(First of all, Sean, I am glad you are still with us and I plan to see your last television appearance in a few hours, as it will be broadcast tonight. You will remain unforgotten, Mr. Jangles, or should I call you "Ron".)

There may be a misunderstanding there, if my reference to people minimizing the idea of the impact of noise because they live in the screams already, is taken as a suggestion that wind turbines should be placed on every roof. The messages were, (1), that noise is a problem even if you think it does not bother you, and, (2), if you had unpolluted places and you ruin them, you destroy your alternatives left. Noise pollution should be fought, period.

The expression «It may be a minor inconvenience for those who live in some metropolitan areas» was rhetoric, as in "Some people used to noisy environment may tend to minimize the issue [but that kind of infrastructure is often placed there where living things go look for quiet]".

Here's a company working on small rooftop wind turbines [1].

There are several other prototype wind power generation designs that would also probably be suitable for building-top use. Here's a 17 minute video looking at several of them [2].

[1] https://www.halcium.com/

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGfB4najfM

construction would be waaaay more expensive.

there are also video compilations of wind turbine failures, tons of raining debris in a metropolis is not a good idea so construction and quality control standards would have to improve which would make it even more expensive.

Energy transport is difficult but there would be much better locations, especially for islands. This is just mismanagement.

Having experienced extended exposure to the kind of low-frequency noise emitted by wind farms and its effect on psychological health, I feel it is not at all hyperbole to call it "torture."

I'm afraid that even in most urban areas, the low-frequency noise would stand out from typical background noise and have noticeable health effects on the community.

There is a growing literature on the health effects of low-frequency noise, and also on (mostly losing) battles of communities against nearby wind farms.

I believe it. Frequencies in that regions are known to cause discomfort. In my opinion they shouldn't be build anywhere near areas where people live.

> they shouldn't be build anywhere near areas where people live

Surely, that societies have a clear idea that noise pollution must be a concern would be duly and civilized -

but, that territory impairing infrastructure is placed in the few quiet places remaining, is a special kind of madness in itself.

Also considering that urban areas in many territories already are a huge compromise in terms of quiet, so you will want to keep the few unpolluted places remaining as a reserve...

Certainly not my area of expertise but would it be possible to arrange the turbines in such a manner the phase of the sound waves they're generating cancels out the harmful infrasound?

> I feel it is not at all hyperbole to call it "torture."

Unfortunately, the topic of windmills is getting politized, and complaining against the negative effects is now being ridiculed and tried to antivaxxing and luddism.

> > There is a growing literature on the health effects of low-frequency noise, and also on (mostly losing) battles of communities against nearby wind farms.

If even Trump couldn't prevent a wind farm near one of his Scottish properties, it's indeed mostly battles being lost:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/joe-biden-just-broug...

While nimbism may play a large role, the negative health effects reported by many people like you should not be neglected.

And I just don't understand why the damage to the wildlife is almost never mentionned.

Yeah, reading the comments, I was surprised how personally some people seem to take it.

>> has to be a lie - they haven't died from lack of sleep

C'mon guys, you can't be serious?!

> I'm afraid that even in most urban areas, the low-frequency noise would stand out from typical background noise

Especially since most cities get much quieter at night.

> better locations

That is an inherent difficulty with wind turbines, because the most efficient places for wind tend to be the places of optimal sound broadcast.

Though location wise, one big point would be: "Alongside the motorway? Ok, consistent. // In the middle of paradise? (...Speechless.)"

To place wind turbines where busy infrastructure already is would facilitate energy transport.

I thought about offshore installations in this case. But it is still very expensive. Otherwise proximity to users would make sense too.

Where would be better? I think the Aegean Sea is quite deep so it wouldn't be possible to attach wind turbines to the seabed.

Floating turbines are possible:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_wind_turbine

These are mostly in the prototype phase.

I’m not sure if there are better actually solution. A single wind turbine near a farmhouse brings out some warm ecofuture vibes however right now it seems more likely that what we will get is every hill top and the horizon near ever beach polluted with turbines.

Off shore wind farms are a nice idea until they block your entire view of the sea.

Wind should be a small scale solution for remote locations.

It doesn’t seem to me that any implementation of it on an industrial scale can be achieved without an environmental disaster of a different kind.

Small Nuclear Reactors and fusion really can’t come fast enough.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com