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Comment by PierceJoy | Hacker News Reader

The blatant misinformation is this thread is astounding.

If you think this is “just a protest”, you don’t live in Ottawa and have no clue what’s going on

If you think vaccines are being forced on anyone, you have no clue what’s going on in Canada.

If you think GFM planned to “steal” the money, you clearly have no clue that the organizer’s plan called for excess funds to be given to charities.

The comments in this thread read like a typical unhinged Fox News comment section. To see this crap on HN is so disappointing.

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As I understand it, the convoy was sparked by a decree that truckers crossing the US/Canada border would have to either be vaccinated or go into 14 days of quarantine. The latter would effectively take away the livelihood of anyone whose job involved doing that frequently. I don't think it's very useful to argue that taking away someone's livelihood isn't "force", or to argue that people are just "choosing" to lose their livelihood. Sure it's not physical force but it's a pretty extreme level of coercion, and it's perfectly easy to understand both why people in that position would turn to their democratic right to protest, and also why a whole lot of vaccinated and pro-vaccine people would support them.

Your only taking away someone’s livelihood if being an unvaccinated trucker is their only option. The vast majority of jobs in Canada do not require a vaccine. Choices have consequences.

Mandatory school vaccinations, mandatory military vaccinations, mandatory drug testing in many jobs, etc. Why did no one lose their minds over those things?

I think you've effectively conceded the point here. Losing one's job is generally understood to be a catastrophic outcome for people in our society, especially when someone has been doing that job for a long time (and perhaps also doesn't have the educational level to get another job at anything close to the same compensation). It follows that "do X or you're fired" is a form of force or coercion. In fact that's so obvious in general that to narrow the definition of "force" to exclude it seems to be a case of special pleading. Threatening someone with a severe material consequence and then saying "it's not force because it's your choice" isn't an argument most people are going to accept, and I find it interesting that you're resorting to it, because it's surely not the strongest argument for your position.

It is typical hypocritical government logic. That's what they say when fucking up one's life:

Gov: it is not a punishment.

Victim: But, but ...

Gov: Sorry but it is your problem / choice / insert your favorite hypocritical BS

> Losing one's job is generally understood to be a catastrophic outcome for people in our society, especially when someone has been doing that job for a long time (and perhaps also doesn't have the educational level to get another job at anything close to the same compensation)

I haven't seen any mass protests about at-will employment. Why not?

> It follows that "do X or you're fired" is a form of force or coercion.

But we've had these things around for decades. Vaccines have been required in other jobs, tests have been required for jobs, and yet no mass protests. Why not?

> Threatening someone with a severe material consequence and then saying "it's not force because it's your choice" isn't an argument most people are going to accept, and I find it interesting that you're resorting to it, because it's surely not the strongest argument for your position.

It actually is the strongest argument, because it's true. No one is being forced.

> I haven't seen any mass protests about at-will employment. Why not?

The cases are not comparable because if an at-will employee loses a job with one employer, the employee can often find a job with another employer.

> Vaccines have been required in other jobs, tests have been required for jobs, and yet no mass protests. Why not?

The cases are not comparable because, as far as I know, there is no testing option in the Canadian regulation. Also, as far as I know, there is no exception made to the 14-day quarantine period for those who cannot be vaccinated because of either a negative reaction to a prior vaccine or deeply held religious convictions.

> The cases are not comparable because if an at-will employee loses a job with one employer, the employee can often find a job with another employer.

And so can anyone fired for not begin vaccinated, since there are many more jobs that don't require a vaccine than those that do.

> The cases are not comparable because, as far as I know, there is no testing option in the Canadian regulation.

It depends which jobs we're talking about. Make so mistake, this "trucker" protest has been coopted by basically anyone mad about vaccines. So for instance Alberta healthcare workers do not have to get vaccinated, but are subject to periodic testing instead.

> And so can anyone fired for not begin vaccinated, since there are many more jobs that don't require a vaccine than those that do.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The jobs I was referring to are Canadian cross-border trucking jobs, all of which are affected. Affected truckers may be able to transition to other trade routes, but they may face hardships (e.g., increased time away from family, lower pay, expenses for required additional training, or opportunity losses relating to non-use of expertise gained in cross-border work).

>Choices have consequences.

Yes, the powers that be chose to force an unnecessary vaccine on working class people, and this is the consequence.

Can we quit using this sinister thought-terminating cliche?

> Yes, the powers that be chose to force an unnecessary vaccine on working class people

No one was forced to get a vaccine. Period.

"Do X or you're fired" -- this is coercion by any reasonable definition. If you think it's easy to just "get another job", you are speaking from a position of immense economic privilege. It's tantamount to "let them eat cake".

Urbanites will regret their fickle treatment of the key workers who provide them with food and Amazon deliveries.

> "Do X or you're fired" -- this is coercion by any reasonable definition.

Do X or you're fired is literally the basis for all employment.

> If you think it's easy to just "get another job", you are speaking from a position of immense economic privilege. It's tantamount to "let them eat cake".

Demand for labour is immense right now. I'm sure you've noticed. People are fired all the time for a number of reasons.

> Urbanites will regret their fickle treatment of the key workers who provide them with food and Amazon deliveries.

They won't, because the vast majority of truckers are vaccinated, working, and against this occupation.

"Just learn to code bro" energy.

Just for your information "bro":

Big Canadian company that does much software development has sent mail to their (never mind employees) but subcontracting companies - get vaccinated or you are out.

You do know there are many more jobs in Canada than coding, right?

This vaccine uses a different technology than all previous vaccines. It bears almost nothing in common technologically with previous vaccines.

As such extra skepticism is permissible.

A year or more ago, sure, a bit of skepticism is fine.

At this point it's been well shown that it's safe and that being unvaccinated is much more dangerous.

Time to grow up.

It is not scientifically possible to show that any substance is completely safe after one year. Anyone who says otherwise is selling you something.

There are countless compounds (mercury, lead, smoking particles) which take years to show their harm and were once considered safe by science.

Do I think the vaccine will join those ranks? No, but I don’t want to oversell it’s safety either.

This is just vaccine misinformation. Anti vaxxers will already have some excuse for why "this" vaccine is different.

This is scientific fact. mRNA is completely different in operation than older degraded-virus vaccines, and to say otherwise is misinformation.

The only things they have in common is the name and the end goal.

The irony of it all is that all this noise is just for American consumption.

Trudeau and the Liberals are loving the damage "The Honkening" causes to the Conservative brand. Erin O'Toole spent the last election trying to convince Canadians that the Conservative Party of Canada is civilized and not a tribe from Trumpistan.

That has all gone down the drain, the CPC kicked O'Toole out and the party is about to swallow the Trump bait, hook and line. Even populist conservatives like Doug Ford (Ontario's premier) can see this.

Meanwhile, the Liberal Party of Canada is just giggling and partying as quietly as they can contain themselves.

> If you think GFM planned to “steal” the money, you clearly have no clue that the organizer’s plan called for excess funds to be given to charities.

So Gofundme gets to turn all the funds into "excess" funds?

Per GFM's standard procedures, which the organizers agreed to when setting up the gofundme, when a gfm gets cancelled, donators have a certain amount of time to ask for refunds. The leftover money that wasn't refunded goes to charities of the choosing of the organizers of the gfm

You're surprised GFM refused to fund an occupation of the nation's capitol?

The charities were being selected by the organizers.

>"If you think vaccines are being forced on anyone, you have no clue what’s going on in Canada."

Yes vaccines are being forced - how else a threat to loose your job can be called. And yes I live in Canada.

>"you don’t live in Ottawa and have no clue what’s going on"

Do we have a clue about what's really going on in the rest of the world? We do not but it never stops people including HN crowd from judging. I bet you are guilty of that too.

> Yes vaccines are being forced - how else a threat to loose your job can be called. And yes I live in Canada.

I call that a choice. Parent's have a choice to vaccinate or homeschool. Military members have a choice to non-covid vaccine or not be a service member. No one was losing their minds over that.

There are many jobs available that don't require a vaccine.

> Do we have a clue about what's really going on in the rest of the world?

We can just listen to people who live in Ottawa. Among others, the mayor has been pretty clear what's going on.

Define “forced.” Your answer will speak volumes.

Okay, you’ve defined forced elsewhere:

“That is not being forced. That is called choice. Choices have consequences.”

That’s literally forced but in an nonviolent matter. Kind of like how people can be correctly be called “forced” to file tax returns in the US.

They are forced, stop playing word games.

"Libertarians forced to use public highways. Oh the humanity"

I'm not familiar with the US tax laws, but in Canada if you don't file a tax return and don't owe money, there are no consequences. If you owe money, and do not pay, eventually you will end up in jail. That's actually being forced, and makes this a terrible analogy.

If someone is fired from the military for not getting a non-covid vaccine, are they being forced to get the vaccine?

They are not being forced. Stop playing word games.

Please omit flamewar swipes from your comments here.

Your comment would be fine without the last sentence.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

In the US, everyone must file a tax return if they have anything over $12,000+ in income. If you don’t, you could get arrested. That is rightfully called forced, because the threat is that you will lose your livelihood if you don’t file. Nobody would call living in jail a real choice.

Similarly, if you don’t take the vaccine, you are also losing your livelihood in the military, possibly having no way to provide for your family outside the military, and this can be rightfully called forced.

Your comment already spoke volumes. Remember when conservatives used to talk about choices having consequences? Funny how they they don’t seem to like that concept when it’s inconvenient for them.

Choices do have consequences, but that does not mean those consequences are just, or that someone can just say those are the consequences take-it-or-suffer.

Like I said, we've had vaccine and testing requirements for many jobs for decades. No one lost their mind. You are being manipulated by right wing politicians.

What we did in the past does not negate the right for anyone to be skeptical about future inventions and developments.

Also, it is very presumptive of you to believe that I must listen to or am swayed by politicians to hold such beliefs.

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