Peaceful protest involves physically assembling and making noise. That is no doubt unpleasant both for those who disagree with the protestors and those who live in the neighborhood, but the right to do this in public is fundamental and vital in democratic society. I thought we were all raised to understand that? For the life of me I can't understand people who are so ready to trash those rights just because they don't happen to agree with a cause. Either these are democratic rights or they aren't, and if they are then they apply to everybody.
* Edit: I shouldn't have said obviously. I should have said: from what I've seen. Some people are posting that there have been violent things going on, but those claims have come without evidence. In the few cases where I have seen objective information, such claims have turned out to be exaggerated. If I see objective information showing that the protestors have turned violent, I will change my mind. (As long as it is clear that it really was the protestors and not someone trying to make them look bad, since that kind of thing also happens at protests.)
People came in and brought homes with them (sleeper cabs, RVs, etc). Now they have set up permanent structures such as kitchens and other facilities (today they brought in a sauna), and have been stating repeatedly that they are in for the long haul.
There is a reason that's called an occupation. A protest is normally a discomfort for the protester. Enduring the elements. Going without. But waving a flag and chanting slogans that convey a message. Here we have a bunch of people in transport trucks blasting their horn 24/7.
Just to be clear: Are you asserting that the fact people are building/taking into account logistics to protest for the long haul with regards to something they vehemently disagree with detracts from the legitimacy of the act of protesting?
If so, wow. That's low-key\backhand authoritarian to a T; defining legitimate protest as something that isn't in the grand scheme of things effective at disrupting something enough people disagree with, and anything that does make a dent either terrorism or something else.
Just to be clear"
The intro to an always disingenuous comment.
"If so, wow."
Yet more.
Protests throughout time have been at hardship and discomfort of the participants. When your "protest" are sleeper cabs (in vehicles regulated through monopoly by the government, which seems like an easy lever) and hotel rooms, now with saunas and food prep rooms, funded by the American right, and your "protest" is laying on horns 24/7, there is zero legitimacy there.
Canada had railway blockades in early 2020 that were groups of people literally sitting in the cold for days on end on railway tracks. And the interesting paradox is that the Canadian "right" were demanding that the police go full stormtrooper on them. Now this same group is cheering on parking a transport truck in the middle of the road and blasting horns around the clock. Bizarre times.
You think that I'm some sort of partisan in this -- perhaps a projection -- and you caught me in hypocrisy. But you didn't. Financing protests is an incredibly dangerous game.
I was against BLM justified violence and looting, as well as the various "free" zones.
I was against the railway blockades in Canada (due to complex aboriginal issues)
I am against the trucker occupations and criminal harassment of the citizens of Ottawa and other jurisdictions (and I think they should be layered with so many fines their trucks become the property of the state).
I'm remarkably consistent on this. Law and order is good. Democracy is good.
They should have a consistent standard one way or the other.
Would you also be against civil rights sit-ins and GoFundMe being used to support those?
Why would a sit-in, or any similar event, EVER need sponsorship? When has it ever needed sponsorship?
This ultimately degenerates around the extremes, and I believe that is what the poster is concerned about; that your definition basically bakes in the assumption that any protest must necessarily be so minor in nature as to not overly disrupt, when in reality, the point of a truly effective protest is to disrupt.
Assume that somehow a fit of madness took hold of the Highest authorities in the land and sufficient agency to implement and enforce dicta in a resistable, but still a threatening degree to the nation as a whole. Assume quite literally the entire country except the perpetrators disagreed.
Now apply your rule. We've got a situation where literally everyone but the people wrecking things is ready to organize resistance. Your rule places the Authorities on a privileged position of presumptive legitimacy where none exists. Only token protests capable of being safely ignored due to transient nature and poor coordination will be tolerated. Anything (even peaceful in the extreme, literally being somewhere, taking up space, breathing air, and just existing), but requiring extensive/non-trivial logistics becomes an act against which force of law is "justifiable" to disperse.
Personally? I don't accept your view. If there are enough people that feel like their capital is best allocated making themselves a pain-in-the-ass to <authority of the week>, that's their perogative.
...Now, given, the cross-border jurisdictional complications in this case, I will give you this seems different because people in another nation are funding disruptive activity in yours. If it were only coming from domestic funders, that'd be one thing. The external funding elevates this to something else. However, this is a complication that has been long in coming to the forefront, and poses diplomatic questions currently above my paygrade.
However, I'm still more sympathetic to the protestors here in the same manner that I disagree with the Taft-Hartley Acts ban on organized secondary striking. Ultimately, I believe the People (for any unit Nation's definition thereof which is a completely different thing to kavetch about) are the ultimate authorities on what is legitimate, and what isn't. If they decide to fund something that the government, or even the rest of the populace doesn't like, ultimately, the vote of no confidence inherent in the action elevates their behavior to civil disobedience.
Which I am totally okay with.
Note: the implicit okay evaporates once people start getting violent, actually committing crimes (where said crimes are not transparently "stop being inconvenient" crimes, a la assault/battery/arson/murder/larceny/grand theft/kidnapping/property destruction).
Let’s say a sit in did need support. Do you think that’s a valid use of GoFundMe?
GFM shouldn't be used to sponsor *ANY* protest. I've said that REPEATEDLY, and consistently. A protest that needs sponsorship is not a legitimate protest.
So by your logic the Civil Rights movement was not legitimate?
"How do you think people were fed? Where did they sleep?"
They literally slept in fields and went days with negligible food. In Ottawa protesters are sleeping in hotels and in $600,000 sleeper cabs running 24/7 and are eating like kings. They have built various facilities including a sauna. They are treating it like a fun vacation. What a shocking contrast.
All of this makes the other reply to you simply incredible.
You think this is a retort. Amazing.
"Getting all defensive and outraged is one way to avoid an answer"
Demanding an answer out of someone, especially when they've spoken directly to the topic repeatedly, and then announcing an imagined, projected hypocrisy, is an unbelievably ignorant, boorish tactic. I might just say a troll tactic. Did you learn this from Tucker Carlson? It has absolutely no place on HN.
As an example, I was once shoved by a person. People are not peaceful
Unsuspecting and uninvolved people are being shoved by protesters. Therefore, this is not a peaceful protest.
In fact, an unsuspecting and uninvolved person was shoved by a protester.
>I think the real struggle is understanding the degree to which they are peaceful or not. Obviously nothing is black or white.
I would also add, the next struggle is what it impact it should have on our reaction, if any.
Obviously violence has nothing to do if someone if right or wrong, but it does have to do with if they should be tolerated. At what point do we no longer tolerate protests based on some violent indivduals?
What if their leaders endorse violence? If 1% of protesters are violent? If 0.001% are violent?
These are the real questions, and not particularly new ones.... There was a lot of violence from US civil rights protesters, people even got violent at MLK protests.
But still, there is a limit somewhere. I think protests should be shut down if the leaders endorse violence. Beyond that, it is really hard to say. Maybe percent is a bad way to think about it, and we should look at damage, IDK.
I agree with the leaders endorsing violence being a clear market for an unacceptable protest.
Beyond that, I would probably leave it to some authority like a judge. They could make the call based on number/severity of incidents, etc.
Nor is it limited to auditory harassment. Some examples: - Convoy protesters harass local shelter for free food. It's not that big a stretch to characterize this as stealing from the homeless since that's specifically who the food is meant for. https://twitter.com/sghottawa/status/1487854425368633344
- Rocks thrown at ambulance as well as anti-asian slurs towards the paramedic https://ottawa.citynews.ca/local-news/rocks-hurled-at-ottawa...
- Protester dances atop national monument "Tomb of the Fallen Soldier" https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/police-look-to-identify-suspect-in... Explanation for the monument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tomb_of_the_Unknown_S...
Protesters refusing to wear masks within hotels and subjecting employees of said hotels who have given no consent to this behaviour - https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/truck-convoy-polic...
Protesters flying Nazi flags - https://twitter.com/yonifreedhoff/status/1487517973422223374...
Downtown mall forced to close as protesters enter and refuse to wear masks - https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/rideau-centre-clos...
I personally know people who have been verbally intimidated for wearing a mask, one who was screamed at and pushed to the ground for wearing a mask, and another who was threatened with rape as she walked into her place of work.
A number of businesses have closed for the weekend due to safety concerns and have subsequently been brigaded with negative comment and reviews on their google listings.
Of course, you can make the claim that the participants are not actually protesters but could be false flag, paid actors, antifa or whatever. I personally think that's reaching. I've lived here for many years, seeing many large protests come and go, and I've never seen such an influx of hateful incidents.
I fully agree with their right to protest and sympathize with some of their complaints but these tactics are in no way acceptable or peaceful. People need rest and these protesters are denying this to a huge amount of people. People should feel safe walking through the streets of their city and people absolutely do not feel safe walking close to the protests because of the many examples of harassment.
Apologies for the length of the reply but, as you can imagine, it's very disappointing to see these events minimized.
Edit: Fireworks now being launched from a downtown street with many residential buildings close by https://twitter.com/berkley33/status/1490136109061484545