Hacker News Reader

Comment by CountSessine | Hacker News Reader

Exactly. The irony of Mercedes-Benz engineers marveling at how unsophisticated a simply-engineered vehicle is brought a smile to my face. Most owner-operator truck drivers want to be able to fix and maintain their trucks on their own, not bring the truck into the dealer every 3 months like some temperamental S-class.

Although I guess Mercedes was still pretty reliable back in the 80's.

View on HN

Actually, I think the irony is the other way around. I've read that worldwide, MB vehicles dominate many markets (e.g. African taxi and trucking) precisely because they are so easy to do local non-dealer maintainance on. Most of the world thinks of many MB vehicles as workhorses, not luxury or sophisticated vehicles.

I've often wondered about this. Here in North America we only get the Mercedes models that need their disc rotors replaced every 30k, and we see nothing of the indestructible and serviceable models that seem to wind up in places without posh MB dealerships.

I've always thought that this was because NA has air pollution laws that are strictly and honestly enforced and that that would make diesel cars difficult to offer.

>I've always thought that this was because NA has air pollution laws that are strictly and honestly enforced and that that would make diesel cars difficult to offer.

Yes, the US regulates NOx emissions much more than Europe. This makes it very hard to offer passenger diesel engines in the US. On the other hand, the EU regulates/taxes CO2 emissions, which the US does only indirectly through CAFE (fuel efficiency) regulations.

How is US fuel efficiency, though?

In Europe cars using 5 liters per 100 km (~48 miles per gallon for the SI-resistant amongst us) are very common.

Much worse than that. There may be a few non-hybrid models that can get that high, but they're very uncommon. You have to remember the best selling "car" in the US is a Ford F-150. They're also exempt from CAFE as I understand it, as they're classified as light trucks rather than cars.

This almost certainly has more to do with how low our gas tax is compared to almost every other developed country though, than any direct regulation.

CO2 emission is almost equal to fuel efficiency. So the regulation explain why.

Yes, MB deliberately cultivated a "luxury" brand image in the US and did not import very many of the "workhorse" models (the ones with smaller engines, manual transmissions, and few options) that the rest world knows.

MB trucks are an entirely different kettle of fish than the consumer and light transport stuff. It all changes above the 3500 kg mark.

In the US their Sprinters compare to the competition about the same way an S-class compares to a Camry. In both cases it's generally considered ill-advised to own it into old age.

I wouldn't call that "entirely different"

Sprinters routinely clock half a million K. You need to maintain them but that goes for all vehicles.

And they are still below that 3500 kg limit. It really starts at Atego:

https://www.mercedes-benz-trucks.com/nl_NL/models/atego-cons...

If the Sprinter took a comparable amount of maintenance to deliver the same service it would not have the reputation it does. It's not like people are jumping to conclusions based on brand either. It was initially branded as a Dodge or Freighter/Sterling. The only operators who like it are high end passenger fleets that depreciate them and then get new ones. Now, in its defense, people do generally hate the FWD Fiat van more...

I've seen some of this. People were bitching about their MBs not lasting long enough: turns out they were skimping on the oil, using regular oil rather than the synthetic oil those engines need. Synthetic oil is a lot more expensive but it lasts much longer. But America likes its oil changes, every ridiculously low number of miles because they believe that is what will make their cars last, rather than to use quality oil to begin with.

MB engines are indestructible if treated properly, they routinely outlast the body of the vehicles, they have oversized oil pumps, use chains rather than timing belts (a common failure point) and in general are designed to last.

There is plenty wrong with MB, their electronics absolutely suck and don't get me started on their software or their over priced parts. But their engines are solid.

There days Mercedes doesn't really export non-luxury vehicles to the US except for maybe sprinter vans.

You really think that owner operators repair their own trucks? That doesn't make any economic sense. This is not a hobby, they need to drive to make money not to play truck repairman.

I'm always astonished how US Americans try to justify poor engineering with "advantage of simplicity". It's like arguing that you want to program using punch cards because that makes you feel closer to the machine and you have a "physical" copy of your programs.

>US Americans

This is a side note, does this bother anybody else? I'm at least a teensy bit bothered by it. I know the point is to reduce ambiguity between the U.S.A and Latin/North/Central/South America, but it still feels a bit condescending, like we're not even allowed to have a unique name anymore or even have a say in we should call ourselves/be called in our native language (and it doesn't help that the only time I hear "US Americans" is when someone is talking shit about us). There's only one country on the continent with the word America in its name. I'm curious if I'm the only one who feels this way or if I'm overthinking it.

> reduce ambiguity between the U.S.A and Latin/North/Central/South America,

And the continent 'America'.

Just for comparison: what do you think 'South Africa' (the country, not the region ;) should be called?

In Romance languages, the continent is known as the supercontinent "America", but in Germanic languages (like English) and other languages that borrow from it call them the "Americas" as two continents "North" and "South" America. So, for people to bring it over as 'America' can sometimes be seen as pedantry instead of insightfulness.

> but in Germanic languages (like English)

Well, yes, in theory you could use 'Amerikas' in German, but nowadays that's mostly because of a bad translation. It actually is correct German to speak of 'both America' - 'beide Amerika' (in singular).

https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Amerika

> So, for people to bring it over as 'America' can sometimes be seen as pedantry instead of insightfulness.

Of course it is pedantry.

Hah, when I hear "beide Amerikas" I think of political divide within the US.

South Africa? I would call it South Africa if that's what they want to be called. I definitely wouldn't call citizens of South Africa "RS Africans" or something unless they preferred that for some reason.

The grandparent might just be German using a literal translation. In German, it is pretty common to call Americans "US-Amerikaner", even when we are not talking shit about you.

The shit-talking is by the way something you should not take too serious. I have seen it directed at Germany from smaller European countries as well. It is just natural to target the bigger, more powerful neighbour, especially when he behaves a bit too full of himself.

Just think of Don Draper answering to "I feeld bad for you!" with "I don't think about you at all."

>There's only one country on the continent with the word America in its name.

Not just the continent(s). The United States of America is the only country in the world with the word "America" in its name.

>I know the point is to reduce ambiguity between the U.S.A and Latin/North/Central/South America

This is only a thing in Spanish. In Portuguese, Americans (that is, those from and of the USA) are often called americanos. In French, américain is much more commonly used than États-Unien.

The Spanish meaning of americano that does not include Americans in this way is very unusual among major Western languages (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_%28word%29#Other_lang...>). I don't mean to say that the equivalent of "American" in those languages is the only way to refer to those of the USA, or that equivalents to "USA" and such don't exist. In Portuguese, Italian, and German, however, saying Americano/Americano/Amerikanisch would generally be understood as referring to that of the USA without additional context, as opposed to a Brazilian or Argentinean, in a way that Americano wouldn't in Spanish.

Further, in Spanish the ambiguity is worse. "Los Estados Unidos" is another term for the US, despite the existence of Mexico (AKA United Mexican States / Estados Unidos Mexicanos). Norteamericano for "American" is also used, despite that term literally including those living in Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean.

(Yes, I know that in practice, Spanish speakers understand that "Los Estados Unidos | EE. UU" and "Norteamericano" refers to the US and its residents. That's my point; shouldn't "Americans" also be understood in context that way?)

>but it still feels a bit condescending, like we're not even allowed to have a unique name anymore or even have a say in we should call ourselves/be called in our native language (and it doesn't help that the only time I hear "US Americans" is when someone is talking shit about us)

Correct; those who use it think that they are making a sly subtle dig against the warmongering imperialistic USAmericans.

You really think that owner operators repair their own trucks? That doesn't make any economic sense. This is not a hobby, they need to drive to make money not to play truck repairman.

I've known several owner-operators, friends of family mostly, and yes, they routinely strip and repair their own kit. It's a lot cheaper and very often faster than taking it into a shop.

I'm always astonished how US Americans try to justify poor engineering with...

O_o

Simplicity also means less time in the shop when needed too, they usually charge by the hour. Also in the 80s I could totally see that. On the side of the road, hood up fix it right there. Remember they probably had CB radio which is limited range, no phone and the closest town is 50 miles behind you.

Also depending on the job it can make very good economic sense to DIY. My brother in law just had to fix something on his car. They quoted him 2500. He fixed it himself for about the cost of some used parts (80 bucks) and a half day of his time. Trucks are no different.

I don't think your argument and analogy makes sense. Simplicity is not only valuable when an owner himself needs to repair the truck.

It's valuable when your truck breaks down in a middle of nowhere, and the closest official repair shop is hundreds of miles away, whereas there might be an "okay" level independent mechanic every 20 miles or less (the actual distance is not the point, the point is that an "okay" mechanic will be probably 10-50x more common).

Simplicity is also valuable with missing parts. Sure, the sophisticated solution is better in terms of performance, electronics, and whatnot, but it might take weeks to receive a part (even before COVID), because the shop doesn't have it and have to be ordered from China. Compare this with simple parts that you can again find in many old trucks and even smaller towns, making it much easier to replace.

Just to put it in coding analogy: if my business needs a website, or a landing page, I'm not going to hire a team of former Googlers and ask them to write a performant backend framework in Rust and invent a new frontend framework. I'm going to ask my uncle who is a hobby designer and can set me up a static site/WordPress in a day. I'm not trying to "justify poor engineering", I just prefer simplicity and the "poor engineering" approach gets my problem solved in one tenth of the time. Who is doing poor engineering now?

Also, coming back to the trucks. There don't need to be poor engineering from either side. Maybe the different requirements just caused trucks evolve in different directions?

> You really think that owner operators repair their own trucks? That doesn't make any economic sense. This is not a hobby, they need to drive to make money not to play truck repairman.

Oh yes! I have seen this unfold once in front of my own eyes, a real spectacle. Driver working for a driver company servicing a distribution company, tries to start the truck, something wrong with brakes, truck is driveable though, gets off, calls boss (company policy). One hour late boss finally arrives, gets in, unhooks trailer, parks the truck three meters to the side, gives the driver a different truck to take. 1 hour more paperwork to process, the trailer finally leaves the distribution warehouse 2.5 hours late. The driver company is apparently paying both late fees and parking fees to logistics company while this ordeal unfolds..

~4AM (5 hours later) a truck fixing mini-buss from a 3rd party truck fixing company arrives with two technicians. They plug into the truck, their diagnostics software shows nothing wrong, they leave.

Next day a different truck fixing company shows up and finally tows the truck after dancing around it for almost two hours with diagnostics software.

Quite a few thousands of pounds burned in just two days of people following rules and policies...

This is apparently "normal", this makes much "economic sense".

There are many areas of the US where a truck driver might find themself hours away from a mechanic or tow truck. I assume there is some value in fixability, assuming the reliability is not too much less than a less fixable truck.

Yep, owner operators repair their own trucks. Sometimes even fairly major engine work.

However, you can have well-engineered simplicity, too, and that seems to be rare. (As opposed to poorly engineered simplicity or highly engineered complexity.)

You don’t know what you’re talking about. 99% of the ride is on interstates. Much of that remote for that type of rig.

It’s the same reason Jeep’s use very simple mechanics. You can repair them yourself and carry appropriate spare parts.

Do they want to spend their time doing it? No. Do they have a choice in most of the country? No. Trucks don't conveniently break down at the mechanic's shop.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com