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Comment by bhauer | Hacker News Reader

Rolling stops were only enabled in the "Aggressive" FSD Beta driving profile, one of three available profiles. Several FSD Beta testers used the Aggressive profile in areas where rolling stops are common. They did this because when using the other profiles, they would be embarrassed or honked at because their car insisted on always coming to a full stop.

Anyone familiar with driving in Los Angeles knows that when it's safe to do so (e.g., when there is no cross traffic on a turn), a rolling stop is extremely common. So common that it is plausible that people behind you might honk if you insist on doing a full stop and then cautiously proceed. Especially during rush-hour.

By the same token, most people in Los Angeles drive 5 to 10 MPH over the posted speed limits. Driving at the posted speed limit will cause other drivers to hate you.

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I truly don't understand this line of reasoning. "Oh no, I've been honked at! Someone in a car, who I'll never meet, doesn't like me! I guess I'd better start driving a bit more unsafely so that people don't honk at me!". I'll ignore someone honking at me if it means I'm driving more safely.

And I've driven in LA plenty of times. It might be the norm for LA drivers, sure, but I would also argue that that whole region could use at least a bit more patience when on the road.

The speed limit differential gets into a bit more of a grey area, though, in regards to laws that require you to maintain a speed that's in line "with the flow of traffic". It's similar in Atlanta; posted speed limit might be 55, but you're likely going to be going at least 70 in the slow lane in order to maintain the flow.

To be fair, road rage shootings on highways have been trending up. There’s some LA drivers I wouldn’t want to upset either.

Last time I was there I had someone get out of their vehicle and get angry as fuck at me - screaming, calling me a piece of shit, mother fucker, etc. - because they turned into oncoming traffic (my lane) to get around a garbage truck, found me there driving in my right of way, and demanded I back up and make room for them. Everyone else on the road in LA seem generally grumpy and impatient.

Granted, I usually drive pretty fast and am aware of my tendency to be impatient behind the wheel, but it seems, anecdotally at least, like LA is worse than many other areas in that regard. The first 20 minutes driving around after I leave LAX are usually spent thinking, "I'm crazy, but these people put me to goddamn shame and I need to adapt quickly," lol.

There are some truly idiotic drivers in California. On the one hand you have people in their beamers who go as fast as possible whenever they have an open lane, that might mean 50mph on residential streets and over 100 on the highway. Then you have the other end of the spectrum, people who think the speed limit is a limit, not a minimum, and drive like 40mph on the freeway with no one in front of them in one of the middle lanes. People weave aggressively left and right to get around them and it causes accidents.

All of this is the direct result of little enforcement for traffic rules. I've never seen someone pulled over ever in California unless there's been an accident. I've never seen a cop with a radar gun. I've actually seen the LAPD speed past me and hang out in the left lane with no lights on, because that's just how the standard of driving is in LA apparently. You try that in the midwest and you will be pulled over for going to fast, for going to slow, for having a 10 foot tall stack of scrap metal in your truck, for spending to much time in the left lane, and for failing to signal. The highways feel truly lawless in California.

One time, a CHP car turned its lights off and deliberately hung out in my blind spot for a few miles on the 405. I can only assume they were waiting for me to do something they could use as an excuse to pull me over.

> I truly don't understand this line of reasoning. "Oh no, I've been honked at! Someone in a car, who I'll never meet, doesn't like me! I guess I'd better start driving a bit more unsafely so that people don't honk at me!". I'll ignore someone honking at me if it means I'm driving more safely.

Sometimes a "bit" of safety isn't worth the tradeoff in throughput. But that also assumes it's safer to stop completely. It's very possible that smoother traffic flow is safer. Or maybe there's more risk that you get rear-ended than is caused by a rolling stop.

Then let's get the road designed that way. I'm onboard with the argument you're making about flow, but - and perhaps this is just me - traffic is safer when it's predictable.

Let's say you have a stop sign in your neighborhood that "everyone" rolling-stops through. Sure, great, let's look into changing that stop into maybe a yield, or a roundabout, or whathaveyou that safely allows for the flow that that street necessitates. But in the meantime? Stop at the stop sign! Yeah, sure, we can make the argument that the rolling stop is now "predictable" to everyone in the neighborhood, but what happens when you get an out-of-towner in front of you on your morning commute and you slack off on watching for them to stop, resulting in you rear-ending them?

Improving the flow of traffic is great, but ignoring rules for the sake of flow adds additional layers of unpredictability that ultimately result in roads that are less safe for drivers/pedestrians, at least IMO.

Thing is, you don’t know whether the honk is for “you are slower than I like” or “your bumper is falling off”.

Being honked at takes cycles to triage what’s happening; in itself that lowers safety.

From my experience honking is exclusively used for frustration over driving style, with vehicular faults more often reported by less aggressive means like flashing brights or shouting the info from an opened window.

> Thing is, you don’t know whether the honk is for “you are slower than I like” or “your bumper is falling off”.

It's almost always immediately obvious what the transgression is if you're paying the slightest bit of attention.

Even the people who are on their phones at a light and have to regain situational awareness from square one do a pretty good job figuring it out.

My suggestion would be for people to stop honking out of impatience. If there's an actual issue, honk. Someone not moving as quickly or dangerously as you'd like isn't an excuse to honk.

I really only honk at people for screwing up. If they cut me off I will wail on the horn for a long time, just holding it, letting them know. I love embarrasing asshole drivers like this especially if they have some passenger. Whenever cars honk at me for using the crosswalk I actually enjoy it, because then I just stand in front of their car for the rest of the light cycle absolutely cussing them out and embarrasing them while they can do nothing because the walk sign is on. I love pointing to the walk sign and saying "What does that sign say? Drive? does that stick figure walking with a countdown say Drive to you?" as loud as possible. Other pedestrians have even fist bumped me. It is so cathartic!

> If they cut me off I will wail on the horn for a long time, just holding it, letting them know. I love embarrasing asshole drivers like this...

I can say confidently that I've never looked at any other driver doing this and thought anything but, "Jesus Christ, calm the fuck down." I've been that guy doing the honking as well, and I'm fully aware that nobody arounds me gives a shit and they just find me annoying. Hell, half the time most of them don't even know what happened; they just look over and see some overly-angry dude screaming at someone.

>... especially if they have some passenger.

Did you really embarrass them in front of the passenger, or yourself? What if the transgression you're honking at was a genuine mistake with a reason that actually makes sense? I've been the passenger in situations like this before and have found myself thinking, "Yeah, oops, but I don't totally fault my driver or the other driver for this and the chud doing the honking needs to chill out because clearly they don't understand the driver's perspective."

I don't think cutting me off without a turn signal has any logic other than "me me me to the red light first!" If I can get them to have a reaction like "jesus Christ, calm the fuck down" then I am a happy camper. Again there are honest mistakes, and clearly asshole illegal behavior that drivers do like speeding like crazy, cutting people off, weaving through the freeway like a snake, running reds, cutting into lanes and blocking traffic because you must get to the turn lane at the last possible moment before there is a barrier, and willfully ignoring signage like no turns on reds. I'm also not embarrassed about calling out drivers as a pedestrian. Why would I be? I do it when have right of way and they don't and they had the audacity to honk at me for walking when the walk sign is lit. It's fun to call out assholes. I love shouting at them, so satisfying.

Lol it must be tough being so tough all the time

Cool.

> can do nothing because the walk sign is on

This works until you do it to a driver who has had a really bad day and demonstrates that the walk sign isn't a force field.

Yes, he'll probably go to jail for vehicular manslaughter, but that doesn't help you.

If they hit me at speed there's nothing I could do whether I argued or not, I'd be laid out before I knew what happened. If they stopped, then hit me, that wouldn't be a bad collision to take, they'd only get up to a few mph in the few feet in front of me even if they hammered the throttle. I'd slide off the hood and get their plates and then they'd be in jail and I would walk into the courtroom with a neck brace and get my payout.

>I'd slide off the hood and get their plates and then they'd be in jail and I would walk into the courtroom with a neck brace and get my payout.

And that constant neck pain, limited mobility and/or arthritis that creep their way into your neck as you get old as a result would be so worth it.

I'd be getting that anyway when I get old, or I could be arthritic and also riding off the dividends of my massive settlement I had in my youth which I promptly would throw in the market.

Go to some town with less than 100k population at least 50 miles away from a metro area and you'll see this sort of ideal world: everyone goes the speed limit or 1-5 MPH below it, honking is only if you haven't moved for at least 5 seconds after the light turns green, nobody's in a hurry at all.

not true - it was enabled by default https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1488544659056087041

Anyone familiar with driving in Los Angeles knows that when it's safe to do so (e.g., when there is no cross traffic on a turn), a rolling stop is extremely common. So common that it is plausible that people behind you might honk if you insist on doing a full stop and then cautiously proceed. Especially during rush-hour

Anyone who drives in LA during rush hour knows that it is never safe to do a rolling stop, because during rush hour there is going to be cross traffic and you need to check that there is cross-traffic at the intersection before turning.

I've witnessed a lot of accidents where some moron thought that saving 3 seconds was more important than safety, and rolled right in front a car that had the right-of-way, or into a pedestrian in the crosswalk that the driver hadn't seen.

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