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Comment by MatteoFrigo | Hacker News Reader

See https://covidestim.org/us for an update to your "too few" statement. The number of previously infected people is at least 70% in all US states I have looked at (80% in NY and CA).

While not directly comparable, an official report from the UK [1, Figure 3] estimated that effectively 100% of blood donors were either vaccinated, previously infected, or both. This was in September. Blood donors are not a representative sample of the population, but it's not hard to believe that by now effectively everybody (in the UK) has some kind of immunity.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

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It 70-80% has been infected, then most of the vaccinated population will be vaccinated and infected, which provides still stronger protection than just infections.

The end result is the same: higher proportion of severe illness among the unvaccinated, which is most easily fixed by vaccinating them.

> higher proportion of severe illness among the unvaccinated

No, among the unvaccinated and uninfected, which, as the data others have been giving shows, is nowhere near even a majority of the unvaccinated any more, let alone enough of a majority to treat it as if it represented all unvaccinated people. So your claim that the unvaccinated but infected are too few to matter and should not affect vaccine recommendations, let alone vaccine mandates, is egregiously wrong.

Again, a category error:

You are failing to differentiate between the two subgroups of unvaccinated people, the previously infected/unvaccinated, and the purely unvaccinated. Additionally, you are not doing any further subdivision on these two groups by age. The blanket "one size fits all" strategy you are advocating is assuming that all of these groups are at zero risk for adverse events from the vaccine. Young, healthy males have a statistically zero risk of severe COVID complications, and a statistically small but non-zero risk of myocarditis. The risk of myocarditis from the vaccine falls to practically zero as you progress upwards up the age distribution, which is the exact group of people who have the highest benefit from the vaccine. You are talking about a gradient which impacts both the cost and the benefit, with a diminishing cost and an increasing benefit going up in age. Not taking this into account is so illogical, that in my opinion, people who hold this view are clearly blinded by bias.

If I'm going to get smeared as an "anti-vaxxer", I'm going to go ahead and use a label to describe humans who hold the rigid, data-resistant view that you possess:

Immunity deniers

> Young, healthy males have a statistically zero risk of severe COVID complications, and a statistically small but non-zero risk of myocarditis.

Now imagine having a healthy 7-year old son, and having an excruciatingly difficult conversation with your spouse about why he shouldn’t get vaccinated. Or having to cut off ties with your mother-in-law, preventing your children from seeing their grandmother, because she thinks you are actively harming your own young children by not getting vaccinated despite having natural immunity.

These people are destroying the very bonds of society.

My wife is from a family of fiercely independent Filipino immigrants. She's always been super levelheaded. I lucked out with her. Her late father was a chemist, and her uncles are all practicing physicians. They were all universally shocked when the push to vaccinate kids started. They know it's not dangerous to kids. They can't even talk about it without lapsing into angry rapid Tagalog. She was right there with them.

Here's a new editorial from a prof at Johns Hopkins:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-high-cost-of-disparaging-na...

Might be useful in those conversations on previous infection. And I agree regarding the social fabric being destroyed by these bureaucrats. They are going to slowly try to find a way to ease out of this in a manner that minimizes the damage to their reputations. That's what political elites have always done when their narratives crumble after they have dug in. See the utter absence of contrition or self reflection after the Iraq wmd fiasco for an example. Or Vietnam. They don't care how much damage they do in the process.

Regardless of how small the absolute risk, the risks of COVID are far higher than the risks of the vaccine, even for 7 year olds. So why are you choosing to die on that hill?

Regarding 7 year olds, you are grossly misinformed, but that's not your fault. The US Federal government is continuing in it's grand tradition of doubling down on bad science to save face of bureaucrats who made bad policy decisions. For previous examples, see the thousands of studies by NIH to justify cannabis prohibition, USDA food pyramid, dragging feet on leaded gasoline for decades, etc.

The rationale for vaccinating kids was to prevent them from spreading it. The vaccine did that effectively before Delta. With omicron, it's worthless for preventing spread. Kids are the one age group at higher risk from flu than covid.

My two kids (8 and 15) aren't vaxxed. They caught omicron, and now they are in the ICU... Oh wait,no they are fine, had almost zero symptoms, and were playing outside the day they tested positive. Which is, statistically, a virtual certainty. They aren't morbidly obese or immunocompromised, so they shrugged it off.

Nobody is dying on a hill. We're just better at statistics and aren't gullible enough to believe these panicked fools.

Put an experimental product from Big Pharma in your kid for no reason. That's your call. But ask yourself why you suddenly trust the FDA, an organization that labeled oxycontin non addictive, approved Vioxx, approved remdesivir for covid despite it being useless, and that's just the past 15 years. Fear is the mind killer indeed.

At this point, the vaccine is as experimental as getting COVID.

We have lots of data on both. Said data shows that 7 year olds are much more likely to have serious affects from COVID than from the vaccine. That's not to say serious outcomes from covid are at all likely. Just that the relative risk is lower with the vaccine.

To reiterate, the absolute risk is tiny, so it's really not a big deal. But if you truly understand statistics, then you will also see that everyone will be exposed to COVID and you are better off with the vaccine than without no matter the age cohort.

And the vaccine reduces transmission (less so than we had hoped, but a reduction, nonetheless), no one ever said it would 100% stop transmission.

I suppose taking an experimental vaccine seems unnecessary if you consider a wild virus to be natural, maybe even artisinal, and you ignore the fact that while the vaccine is quality controlled and the same as what billions of people have now received, and the virus is constantly mutating, well then I guess the virus sounds safer.

> Immunity deniers

Let's not do this. When this mess is over we'll all want to work and break bread together again, and that's much more important than whatever any of us happened to believe or say in the fog of war.

You're right, labeling people is a terrible thing to do.

I'm just at a breaking point now, after 2 years of having the most anxiety and risk-averse among us gleefully demonize, censor, and shame those of us with heterodox opinions. When you add to that the enthusiastic endorsement of forcing people like me to get a shot despite already having immunity solely to appease their paranoia, the bitterness has put me over the edge. Considering that it's the same crowd who has spent decades chanting "my body, my choice" and insisting that the government "never come between a person and their doctor", the hypocrisy adds to the outrage. I've been called a conspiracy theorist for pointing out the highly improbable chain of coincidences that made me doubt the narrative around the virus' origins, then had to watch as they all change their minds without an ounce of self-reflection or a single apology. On top of this, the national media has been completely, un-flinchingly on board with all of it, which is a distinguishing characteristic from the harassment and government intrusion upon LGBT folks championed by the political far right until the 2010s. They gave these anxiety driven tyrants full moral authority to violate my rights. I hope you can understand my bitterness.

The last thing I want to do is dehumanize others. For the crime of not wanting to get NEEDLESSLY injected with a rushed, experimental genetic technology whose trials were entirely run by pharmaceutical companies who have a long history of overstating benefits and hiding risks for their products, I've been ostracized, condemned, and coerced by the same people who insist on not eating GMO produce.

Enjoyed your posts and keep it coming.

Just finished a few trips to Latin America. Kissed the ground when I got back here to Florida, where kids goto school, don't wear masks, and don't have to be vaccinated. Here, we respect individual liberties. We respect the right to go out and earn a living and put food on the table and if we lock everything down, at least uncle sam sends out checks to hold us over for a while.

People are starving and dying in places like Venezuela, Cuba, and other countries in LA. Small business has been devastated by the un-ending lock downs.

Unemployment is rampant. People cannot put food on the table. Its crazy. The lack of empathy that local governments have in LA for a persons right to earn a living is unconscionable. Maybe its because the virus has hit hard the wealthy elite ruling class since they tend to be rich, fat, white, and old. I dunno. But they are all wanting to break in to America and would if they could.

That's really awful to hear regarding Latin America. How is Columbia doing? Do you have any insights there?

Lots of columbians here in miami trying to make ends meat. I've met one famous soap actress who cleans houses here ( in Fl) and also a successful psycologist who is waiting on tables because of the economic malaise caused by forced business closures.

Politics is a contact sport.

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