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Comment by americandesi333 | Hacker News Reader

The article also reveals that as Americans now that our country has evolved over past around 300 years of democracy, there is a sense of 'entitlement' that has come with it.

This entitlement is in opposition to fostering curiosity and risk taking mentality. People that feel they are entitled to have food, shelter and clothing will never work creatively towards it and will be reluctant in taking risks or understanding failure.

This needs to be fostered at a young age, when kids should be working on projects and understanding the value of resilience instead of having things handed down to them. I came to this country at a young age and had to fend for myself. Thats when I learned the real meaning of 'resilience'.

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When I look at various techniques used in special forces training in the United States -- waterboarding, hypothermia, near-drowning, psychological torutre, etc -- I'm left with the counter-intuitive observation that taking stuff away from people and making life really tough on them has a tendency to make them much more able to handle all the "normal" stuff that many times tangles up the rest of us.

There might be something there which these schools could harvest.

PTSD. Sorry.

That training is about taking people out of civil society and giving them the ability to engage in behaviors that would give others (quite rightly) pause. This is not a place to look to generate well-rounded citizens that do not see violence as a way to manipulate others.

The primary "technique" that special forces training uses is just simple exhaustion. It's humbling how much being exhausted can make you re-asses your priorities - and even if you don't quit, you know that you wanted to. Being that exhausted and knowing that rest is nowhere near in your future can be psychologically devastating. The things you listed are probably used, but they're not the primary training method.

I have never been in the military, but I've training Brazilian jiu-jitsu and some mixed martial arts for many years now. Practices can be tough.

s/special forces training uses/having children works on you/

> waterboarding, hypothermia, near-drowning, psychological torutre, etc

Do yourself a favor and read Judith Herman's book "Trauma and Recovery." You'll quickly understand why your counter-intuitive observation is simply wrong. These things work in special forces training in a way they never could and never will in prisons and hospitals.

The most effective schools do similar things, and call it "outdoor education". It's expensive, and I doubt there's much evidence about the long-term effects on the students.

I'd guess they don't take it far enough to be useful. When people first experience cold, hunger, fear and exhaustion, most focus on their suffering, and feel helpless. You can learn to take the discomfort for granted, focus on your actions, and feel proud. That takes more experience and mentoring than the average student gets.

Also, being able to handle the normal stuff is good, but not caring about it at all is bad, and the middle ground can be hard to find. Tim Winton's novel, Breath, develops that idea.

I don't know. Tasting failure, working to avoid is different from lacking food, shelter, or clothing. As an adult, I know I'm more likely to take risks if I know that, for instance, gambling on this job won't kill me. And taste too much failure, and you hit learned helplessness. Like the girl who was chewing gum was experiencing:

> “She said: ‘I’m trying so hard to just grow up. But nothing ever changes!’ And I said: ‘Do you know what does change? You didn’t have a baby attack in front of the other kids, and two weeks ago, you would have.’ ”

That's the teacher being encouraging, lessening the failure the kid is experiencing. Because people's pride in themselves is a sufficient motivator to change their lives positively, without risking starvation.

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