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This magazine or blog or whatever seems to either be an elaborate joke or bait or something:

  >Are you guys for real?
  >Yes. While there is some satire involved, we believe to the very core of our >souls every word we write.

  >Who are you?
  >We are a group of functional alcoholics based primarily in Denver, CO. Included in our ranks are published novelists, filmmakers, English gentlemen, barflies, punk rock musicians, comedians, outright dastards and admitted boozeheads.

  >Do you mind the word alcoholic?
  >No. We are taking it back from the fascists. Soon it will be considered a compliment.

I’d just take them at their word they are functional alcoholics who formed a community around being alcoholics. If you think of it as a religion, maybe it makes more sense?

The "taking it back from the fascists" is just too much for me.

>This magazine or blog or whatever seems to either be an elaborate joke or bait or something

Or you know, part of the once respected in some circles tradition of self-destruction with style, before everybody started jogging and going vegan to live to 100 years old as a "productive" boring member of society...

There's always lots of other industrial solvents that are even more toxic by the gram or even relatively few milligrams.

OTOH real decadence has been more sustainable forever the less toxic it is.

Being productive can be lots of fun. To each their own of course.

Before we came up with jogging there was church :)

If anything, most of organized religion is about preparing to die. The complete opposite of our current materialism and obsession with keeping personal entropy at bay.

but alcohol is so pedestrian. and socially acceptable. this is somehow even more pathetic than being a weed guy.

style would require an edgier, more risque substance, and a narrative. but you'll never see it. i think even tweakers know better than to spend energy justifying choices to strangers

exactly; why not look forwards to new industries in 2100s like that of designer drugs and dance-theatres exploring the discourse of higher dimensional manifolds and the holistic feeling that is existence itself

It is for these that I'm giving up alchol for other things [1]

[1]: https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client...

There's nothing stylish about being an alcoholic, but people often conflate the two because plenty of prominent, stylish people were also alcoholics. Drinking didn't make them stylish, and anyone who thinks getting lit will turn them into Keith Richards is probably a massive burden on everyone who has to put up with them.

Some people could consider drugs in the same way, just look how many celebrities do/did drugs. And many of them was famous to death thanks to drugs (as they died young, but this point like to be omitted)

>as they died young, but this point like to be omitted

Why "like to be omitted"? It's actually part of the allure.

The slogan was "Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse".

Not "Eat kale, be productive, use a task management program, live to 100".

There is nothing exciting about drinking. It's a substance, and the only reason people like to associate with famous and interesting people is twofold. a) it gives you an excuse to drink b) it takes the famous person down a notch.

The famous people did not become famous because they drank, but due to other reasons - working their arse off, talent, ambition, networks etc. The reason they are also famous alcholics is just an correlation and not causation.

I don't judge alcohol use but it's an end in itself, and it does not improve anything.

It's nice to enjoy a drink once in a while, but it does not improve a person in any way.

maybe its the inebriati https://youtu.be/VTSCppeFzX4

I definitely used to think that way. It's the type of thing that is a lot of fun to be a part of, until it isn't anymore. It's a thrilling way to self identify, until it becomes your entire identity.

I hope they all end up ok.

I was sort of forced out of that identity by COVID lockdown and domestic imperatives. I used to be proud of how many cans I could pound in a session before I got kicked out of a bar. Now, if I or anyone else do that, it's a huge pain in the ass.

I still don't trust people that have never been drunks, though. There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. The problem definitely is when people mistake being a drunk dickhead with being punk.

> There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos.

Funny. I've run into many more social norms that promote drinking while socializing, especially at universities and in tech.

That makes sense! I never went to college and have never really been in "tech". Of my several dozen close friends, only one went to college and he definitely became markedly different than us as his studies went on.

Drinking is so normative that not drinking became the punk ethos via the hardcore scene, straight edge etc. Two of the most punk guys alive (Ian MacKaye and Henry Rollins) have been sober longer than some people in this thread have been alive. Getting blackout has more in common with hair metal so if your hero is Nikki Sixx, more power to you.

Haha I get that. I love MacKaye and Rollins.

As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. I chalked it up to kids trying to exude a rebellious attitude within the safe confines of the Christian narrative. That didn't seem as authentic to me as the kids who started anarchist punk or satanic grind bands.

Basically, there were some behaviors that served as the narc test. Straight edge kids had a self-declared pass because of their morals. "I don't drink, see? I have an x tattooed on my hand." Those morals conspicuously seemed to align with what "good Christian kids" were taught to believe. This was outlined in stark relief as I realized more and more bands around me labeled themselves as "Christian".

I hadn't revisited that conclusion in a long time, but a cursory glance signals to me that the logic is still sound. It seems like it was my own allergic reaction to cynicism, which I think MacKaye et al might at least respect.

As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort.

While both "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" would not drink I never found them to have much overlap or common ground beyond that. When I was growing up people who self-identified as "straight edge" where far more likely to involved in the far left, anarchist and/or anti fascist scene. I never knew someone who didn't drink for purely religious reasons to describe themselves as "straight edge".

I found the straight-edge scene intellectually lightweight and often insufferable. Substance abuse is common among artists for a reason; many are psychonauts. Merely being a drinker does not a psychonaut make, but then again, Hemmingway wasn't just another drunk. Producing art is akin to shamanism.

Hemingway (claimed he) never wrote a word while drunk. In fact he was highly critical of contemporaries who drank and wrote.

Hemingway wrote, and Hemingway drank, but in that order on any given day.

[edit: I agree with your point, I just wanted to clarify re: Hemingway specifically]

Reminds me of my first year in college. A big group of us all thrown into a wild party town, on our own for the first time, learning about ourselves and each other. Only it wasn’t centered around alcohol, it was centered around crystal meth. Of course alcohol, weed, and various hallucinogens were always present but the big thing tying us together was the meth.

Everything was great, if a bit intense, for the first few months. It felt like it was us against the world and we were invincible. Slowly but surely, though, cracks began to emerge. One of us would hit a rough patch, drop out, and move home (sometimes after totaling a vehicle). Others started getting into petty crime and became convinced the FBI was after us - it didn’t help that one girl’s Father actually was a fed who became increasingly concerned about his daughter’s erratic behavior. I think all of us started seeing shadow people and realized the downward spiral we were in.

Things kind of ended after that first year when most of the group couldn’t handle the lifestyle and school simultaneously. The few of us who didn’t drop out went on to varying degrees of success from solid middle and upper middle class lives to one guy who started a company and is now worth a couple hundred million. It was a crazy time with some pretty wild memories that I wouldn’t take back - but certainly wouldn’t recommend.

This is what made Pete Hamill stop drinking. After decades of hard drinking, he realized he had always been putting on an act. In fact, he inadvertently started to step out of himself to watch himself not be himself. That realization bothered him so much, he just quit.

I've given away the ending, but his book ("This Drinking Life") is well worth reading. (As a biography, not as a guide to help anyone quit drinking).

Instead of drinking, all of these can be accomplished by taking a “spiritual retreat” for a weekend.

It could be a trip into the woods, a religious retreat with other people, or a stay at a quiet hotel far from home.

I’ve done all three. When I have to make the long drive to my parents for a mandatory family get together, I’ll book a hotel halfway to take time for myself.

The idea is to get away from your normal environment and sit down with yourself. I usually bring my kindle and a notebook.

Some people just like to get fucked up. Better not to judge

If bringing a 12-pack to keep you company helps with the stated goal, by all means, bring one. :)

I have a prescription for benzos. I’ve used them a couple of times to help during a retreat. (And family gatherings…) But I found benzos to leave me much clearer-headed than alcohol and they don’t mess with my antidepressant.

Majority of people like to get fucked up to escape reality, especially alcohol.

That's fine - but to suggest alcohol is a good way to understand yourself better is bs imo. There are far better ways/substances.

Get drunk when you want to by all means, but don't try and paint it as 'good for yourself'. There are far better substances if you want to do some instrospection!

>but to suggest alcohol is a good way to understand yourself better is bs imo.

That's not what I got from the article. It seemed to me to say that alcohol could be used to get to know one's self better. Truly getting to know one's self isn't always safe. Nothing risked, nothing gained.

>Instead of drinking, all of these can be accomplished by taking a “spiritual retreat” for a weekend

That's like saying to someone "instead of kinky BDSM you could accomplish the same by making sweet tender love".

I don't think it works for everybody.

I think the point is that many of the advantages cited in the article don't actually depend on alcohol, and others are really dangerous. It's akin to the BDSM analogy if there was an article about BDSM where points were "you spend close time with another person" or "you get to feel another person's genitals".

I like getting drunk on my own once in a while, but I agree with the previous poster. The article is unconvincing. Nearly every point is something that doesn't need alcohol, something that is really questionable whether it's actually a good thing, or an opaque metaphor about a monkey. There are certainly advantages to drinking alone, but the article reads more like self-convincing rationalizations from an alcoholic, and fails to actually point out why alcohol is even necessary for most of this.

I had kind of spiritual retreat when I had to isolate for ten days with Covid. I was scared that I wouldn't be able to cut back on my alcohol usage, but it turns out I hardly drank at all. I poured myself a beer most nights but only drank a little bit of it. That really brought it in focus for me how much of my drinking is driven by self-medication for social anxiety and boredom.

Ethanol destroyed my brother's life and two of my best friends lives, and did serious harm to all of the lives they were connected to. It is a deeply selfish drug. I recommend that everyone never, ever touches it outside of ceremonial use.

I've definitely had realizations drinking alone. It's not a state you want to be in all the time, or even often, but it can be useful. It's sort of like a random jump in the mental search space to get out of local minima.

(Though perhaps I could train myself mentally to be able to enter these more loose states w/o alcohol, and that would be even better?)

Alcohol isn't special in this regard. There are many ways to shake oneself out of their standard mental cycles. There are lots of other drugs, and there are also plenty of non-drug techniques and experiences.

Yes, very fair point. (Alcohol is very lindy, though!) Any non-drug techniques in particular you've had good experiences with?

Guided meditation, hiking, hot yoga, intensely practicing music, watching challenging movies, skateboarding, scuba diving, and dance lessons come to mind.

Thanks. Alcohol is a poison and getting drunk has nothing to do with finding yourself. I wish people would quit romanticising addiction.

I quit a bit over a year ago. Never properly addicted, but Australian culture has it so firmly embedded it's scary. I'm a better person for it, and I don't miss it.

If I want to feel wasted the next day I'll do 120% in the garage gym. Under the bar I both find myself, experience euphoria afterwards, and retain the ability to be wrecked the next day should I choose to.

But it'll be a good kind of wrecked, more likely.

>* Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.

- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.*

This pre-assumes you can have a honest dialog with yourself sober.

If you can't, then i don't think alcohol is the solution here tbh.

Sure, it's not a solution in and of itself. It's useful to destabilize you from well-rehearsed thought patterns, though - and if you manage to hit the Ballmer Peak of soggy introspection, maybe you can manage to make some progress.

There are definitely times when something that seemed like inconsequential bullshit a few rounds deep was revealed to be just that upon reflection while sober. Unfortunately it's a fine line to walk.

This sounds like an opportunity to put the beer money towards a therapist for the same effect.

Booze is much cheaper.

> No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.

I've had plenty of interesting insights into all sorts of things while inebriated that remained interesting and insightful long after I'd sobered up. Maybe this doesn't work for you but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone.

I don't know if this is entirely fair. A drink can loosen you up and stop you from fixation. This *might lead to new introspection.

> * Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.

- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.

I don’t think that the fact that you disagree with a statement qualifies that statement as a syllogism.

I read those three statements as being distinct (for example “preferred cocktail” is a different subject from “comfortable silence”) though I will concede that all three statements do share a general theme of “the author enjoys drinking alone.” However, discussing various reasons for enjoying something does not qualify a statement as a syllogism.

While I also do not generally agree with the author, I’m not a big fan of “things I disagree with are Wrong in terms of fundamental logic. Anything I don’t like but Others do is wrong because those Others lack the fundamental Brain Power to Understand The World(tm) like me. To disagree with me is to commit an Aristotelian error of the highest order.”

It’s honestly an incredibly depressing attitude to come across, and it’s pretty much universally held by people that spend a lot of energy being “Not Mad” at not getting invited to parties.

Maybe you might feel differently about who is the arbiter of logic if you cracked open a nice beer?

You must be fun at parties.