Hacker News Reader

Comment by stathibus | Hacker News Reader

Let's consider the alternatives to to-do lists. They are 1) remember everything without writing it down, or 2) rely on being reminded about anything important by something or someone else. I don't think I've missed any, and it's pretty obvious to me why 1 and 2 are bad plans... so obvious that I'm confused about why so many people blog or write books about the concept.

View on HN

If you're sincerely confused, here are some reasons people avoid them:

- https://blog.codinghorror.com/todont/

- https://hbr.org/2012/01/to-do-lists-dont-work

- https://blog.frantic.im/all/todo-apps-are-meant-for-robots/

I also saw a recent HN comment that todo lists are basically suitable only for low-level ICs and that the truly successful don't use them. I wondered if that was really true and, well, here we are.

[edit]: I think there's also an issue that people can't self-regulate very well, so when they fail, they blame whatever system they use. So I wanted a clear signpost I could point to make it utterly clear that successful people do use these things (and, therefore, that any misgivings have other roots).

Wow, the first article is just awful.

He's not even saying that to-do lists don't help. He's saying that if they do help you, you're broken.

Congratulations on having never forgotten something important, I guess? I apologize for being a mere mortal who gets distracted and forgets things sometimes.

It’s a part of the “everything you do must be awesome” movement. They forget that most people have a job and a personal life to take care of. Ticking items in a todo list is perfectly fine. Also I had a feeling their main argument is that they’re getting overwhelmed by the list itself. I guess it can be a problem, but the solution is to learn to let your list go sometimes. You must re-assess it regularly.

> Also I had a feeling their main argument is that they’re getting overwhelmed by the list itself. I guess it can be a problem, but the solution is to learn to let your list go sometimes.

Yeah, near the end:

> Here's my challenge. If you can't wake up every day and, using your 100% original equipment God-given organic brain, come up with the three most important things you need to do that day – then you should seriously work on fixing that. I don't mean install another app, or read more productivity blogs and books. You have to figure out what's important to you and what motivates you; ask yourself why that stuff isn't gnawing at you enough to make you get it done. Fix that.

He's kinda indirectly saying you should have a daily to-do list, started anew instead of ever-growing, just avoiding using the term "to-do list".

Amusing little aside, I use "to-do list" instead of "todo list" because I can't help read it as the Spanish "todo", which would translate to "everything list". That would be too overwhelming a list.

That quote is the perfect definition of "everything you do must be awesome".

Guess I’m broken. Fortunately, because I have a good to-do list, I can brute force my way through the brokenness and actually be productive.

I envy people who can remember all their obligations with storing them somewhere. I am not one of those people.

Articles like this leave me wondering how they really live their lives. I don't know if I smell BS but most people who use todo lists aren't todo-ing their whole day, nor wasting time adding things to it they never do. I've also never felt the need to download multiple apps. My calendar app works for long-term and paper & pen can handle the rest.

Problem is, author likely hand waves your concern away. If it was truly that important you wouldn't have forgotten it. :vomit:

I think the articles you link are mistaken and that OP is correct. This is quote from one of them says it all: "I've tried to maintain to-do lists at various points in my life."

Of course don't do that. Todolists are there to help you remember things, not to be "maintained" or to provide you with a sense of "achievement" or whatnot. They are basically the same thing as a shopping list. Nothing more, nothing less.

The first step to actually use a todolist is not to use fancy Todolist apps. Just use Notepad or whatever simple text editor that can do cut/paste.

Yes, and learn to let the list go sometimes. Re-assess it, toss it away and make another one, etc. It’s much better to consciously ignore/forget about some tasks (because they have become unimportant) than to unwillingly forget something important.

That's why I don't like them having a 'done' column (or bucket, state, whatever) - they should be at most archived, if not just outright deleted, IMO. Just to-do, maybe optionally doing, and gone. Gone for whatever reason. And then you're never tempted to play the silly game of 'add task I already did so that I can tick it off'.

Yes. My Todolist is a textfile with one horizontal bar (=====). Above it are the things to do, below the thing that I did. When something gets urgent I move the item just above the bar. When I do something I just move the line under the bar.

I do that because sometimes I don't remember if I did something or not. Or because I need to add details about how I did it (or why I couldn't do it, sometimes). I have this additional rule that, when a task needs extra info, they are indented right after the item line.

Actually the whole thing is one section of a VimWiki file, but I use none of the features of the plugin for this. It does have single-keystroke checkboxes; I use that for checklists, which are sort of "repeatable todolists".

Same system here. It’s simple and effective.

There is nothing bad about choosing to to do some tasks. You have infinite things you can do and only finite time -> conclusion is that you will only do an infinitesimal amount of what could theoretically be done.

That makes it infinitely more important that you do the right thing, and so you should be ruthless when you make your choices.

I completely agree (I'm the post author). I found a simple text file works well for me. I think what's most important is that I can get in the habit of using it every day. Most else is just window-dressing.

I use them at work, I have the habit of looking at my todolist when I have nothing to do, or to decide what to do next. Actually we use a ticket system that could act as a todolist, but it's a mess for "local" reasons.

This remembers me that tickets systems are just glorified todolists - and maybe they suffer from the same feature bloat as todolist apps. Although I acknowledge ticket systems are team tools, so it is a whole different game.

These common reasons listed in these types of articles do not support the conclusion that todo lists don’t work.

They are a list of some common challenges when working with todo lists. But what working method doesn’t have challenges?

I could compose a list of various challenges of working from home. It does not mean working from home, “doesn’t work”.

I completely agree! And I myself use a to-do list. I mention these just to illustrate why some might disagree that to-do lists are obvious.

Everyone has their own way to be effective and productive, my opinion follows.

TODO-lists are useful when using them for what they are good for:

1. mini-planning the upcoming work,

2. tracking what you've done (the ticked boxes), and

3. tracking what needs to be done to complete the main task (the unticked boxes).

Putting this information into the calendar? No, totally wrong place. Using some app? Clumsy and annoying and easy to get distracted... but sure, if it works for you.

I'd say just use a text file with whatever format is OK for you. Or pen + paper.

I have TODO-lists with tasks with a time-span of a few weeks to many-a-day subtasks that I plan ahead of time so I know what to do next.

In my opinion, that's the important part: knowing what to do next.

If you don't know what to do next, you have to stop to figure this out. Hence the TODO-lists.

Besides, for me, this switching of mode from executing to planning/analyzing breaks the flow of the task I was doing. I have to go into another kind of mind-state. So I try to plan ahead and then just execute, it's easier and more fun to just keep the flow going for a longer time.

Usually my subtask planning for things I'm familiar with is more tactical and I just throw it in as I go (I'm used to this now), but for unfamiliar things I have to stop and analyze things up front. Of course situations change and then I just go back and modify the tasks and plans. But at some point, a clear path forward emerges. Then I take it.

>> I also saw a recent HN comment that todo lists are basically suitable only for low-level ICs and that the truly successful don't use them. I wondered if that was really true and, well, here we are.

Would love the link if you can find it.

I know around ~10 very successful people (high net worth business owners / C level positions), including some close family members, and they all use TODOs / notes extensively in their personal life and at work. Some have personal assistants that serve a similar function (and they rely heavily on them). We had a joke for one of them that he makes notes to look at other notes (based somewhat in reality - it was a fridge note to look at the longer note on his desk). Many of the older ones have a daily journal where they copy / delete uncompleted tasks to the next day I can't imagine any of them functioning without a TODO system.

They do also heavily use calanders and sometimes the TODO lists and calendars blend together, but it's not a mutually exclusive thing like the original post's links would leave one to believe.

The last article you link is the only one that makes some good points IMO and it's more of an argument for an even better task list if anything.

From the first article:

I think most people don't have the money to go on a years-long soul searching trip while getting nothing done in the meantime. I dislike that trend of saying "you aren't a perfectly functionning human? Time to go on therapy and focus on self-improvement for a few years". I work with half-broken systems all the time, I'm one of those. And it works! I'm able to do stuff, be kinda productive at work, spend good time with family and friends, and even find a bit of time to work on myself to get better.

The article uses Da Vinci and Musk as examples, and they had some success.

That said, “assess a corpse using his finger as a unit of measurement.” Was a to-do item.

A lot of the criticisms I’m seeing here are how you approach your todo list. If you look at it as a script for your whole life of course it’s going to fail, you’ll spend more time setting it up and consulting it than doing anything with it, and it’ll quickly get swamped with irrelevant details. If you use it as a ‘living document’ that jogs your memory for what needs to get done it’s going to work out better. Often times just putting something on paper helps organize your thoughts around something and commit it to memory.

Is it obvious? I forget many things but the rarely ever the most urgent/important tasks i have to do right now.

I need a calendar and checklists for sure but when i write to do lists they inevitably end up being things i'd never forget mixed in with a clutter of tasks that were never really important enough to get around to doing.

I don't use hand written or electronic lists or reminder systems. You might say I use a biological memory system but I don't see it in any way as a list. I'm aware that I have tasks, and they have deadlines, priorities, effort levels, complexities, dependencies, relationships, and so forth. But it is so alien to me to put them in an app or on paper. I've tried, since others swear by it. But it makes as much sense to me as writing down the words I know so that I can later use them in the right order at the right times. It's a huge reduction in dimensionality for no purpose.

The discourse is often that there are two groups 1. those that use todo lists and are more productive than if they didn't 2. those that don't use todo lists but could be more productive if they did

I genuinely feel there is a third group, those that do not use todo lists and would not be any more productive if they did. I don't avoid them, I've tried them with their doctrines because they were recommended by others. Didn't add anything at all. I have no 'todo pain points', rarely if ever feel I've forgotten something or would have been aided with a 'list'. I have a good memory/recall capacity but not especially good so it is not that.

I do create 'lists' to add memory, but these are along the lines of the 40 items of grocery to buy, or clicking 'add to list' on Netflix. Not 'todo' lists as such.

I'm interested if anyone else feels similar.

I couldn't be more different. I probably wouldn't even get out of bed each day unless I wrote down what to eat for Breakfast the night before.

To mentally keep track of your entire life, from "in 1 years time I need to get my boiler serviced" to buying birthday gifts on time to completing school/college assignments on time without ever forgetting anything is from point of my view an astounding achievement.

If I were to follow such a system I would be constantly racked with anxiety that I had promised someone I would do something and then forgotten about it, or needed to pay a bill, return a library book, eat some food before it went off, etc. etc. Perhaps I just have a terrible memory.

... 3) forgetting stuff, as a crude approach to prioritization

> 2) rely on being reminded about anything important by something or someone else.

Isn't that what a to-do list is—just a reminder of anything important by something else?

No, it’s a reminder from your past self. For example: at any given time, I’m usually supervising 6 to 10 students at the same time. In one day I might have 4 or 5 meetings, and I might promise, to each of them, to do something until our next meeting. But in the next two days I have other stuff to do, so I’ll only get to it a few days later. Each of these promises is important to me, and I don’t want to let them down, but expecting myself to remember each of them is a self-sabotage. I need a todo list. Also saying that “if I forgot is because it wasn’t really important” would make me an awful supervisor.

One of the most impactful signals we can give to others is writing information and promises that arise between us.

"What are you doing?"

"I'm writing down that I promised you that book so I can get it for you for your birthday."

"Oh, that's awesome. Thank you."

Downside of to-do lists

1. You spend too much time optimizing your to-do list. 2. You realize you are spending too much time optimizing your to-do list and you give up in frustration because you feel like you don't get your actual work done.

With a text file, it's a free for all, you don't feel obligated to keep it clean, when you have to make a note you just "do it".

I am confused. The assumption here seems to be that people are using to-do lists to... schedule their lives or something? Otherwise what you said makes zero sense to me.

Either way, I cannot relate at all

It’s just definitional at this point - I’d say that a text file counts as a to do list.

Yes, some people make a hobby out of the lists themselves. That's probably not a good idea. The solution is not "stop making lists."

Reply on news.ycombinator.com