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Comment by yesenadam | Hacker News Reader

> Nowhere in life change happens without trauma.

I found that shocking to read. It's a million miles from my experience of life. That sounds horrible. Perhaps you've found it true, but please stop saying it like it's true for everyone, a fact of life. I can't even imagine how you could believe such a thing, well, it works for you or something, I guess. Also, saying that then complaining in the same breath that someone else is defeatist! is hard to swallow. That sounds a cold, hard world that you live in. Good luck. I don't think it's the only world, by any stretch, though. Although I'm sure I misunderstand you - that's a very foreign language to me, everything about it is strange. Beatings, suffering, trauma.. :-(

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I think you're responding to the use of the word trauma. OP is correct, but perhaps OP should have used a different word.

We don't make progress unless we take risks and move outside of our comfort zone. Sometimes, those risks don't pay off, and the result is painful in some way. Maybe that pain is "traumatic", maybe not. Certainly, if the risks don't pay off, then we need to be willing to live with the painful result. This necessarily requires an understanding that pain is OK, and that accepting the risk of pain is a necessary part of growth.

A lot of people like to fantasize about being on the other side, about having already undergone that personal growth. Fantasy is easy, but it's not a replacement for the real thing, and engaging in too much fantasy will give you feelings of guilt and/or resentment for not actually being on the other side. There are two healthy directions to deal with this: you either give up on the fantasy and accept being where you are (i.e. what the article advocates), or you fully accept the costs and risks that are needed to get there, so that you can actually start on the journey to get there.

Moving outside of your comfort zone is not inherently painful. Sure it may be uncomfortable or scary but it certainly doesn't imply trauma. I interpreted OP's comments as trauma being the causative factor for change to occur, not that change results in trauma.

"Fully accepting the costs and risks needed to get there" sounds like you're preparing for a hike to the antarctic or something. Not all changes have to be this dire.

Deciding to get fit is not really a sacrifice. Rather, it is turning certain disciplines into habits. If you have enough leverage to force you to do that, there is no pain or trauma involved.

> "Fully accepting the costs and risks needed to get there" sounds like you're preparing for a hike to the antarctic or something. Not all changes have to be this dire. Deciding to get fit is not really a sacrifice. Rather, it is turning certain disciplines into habits.

I think you're downplaying what it's like for many people to start making fitness a larger part of their life. It might as well be a hike to the antarctic. In the beginning, the costs can seem very, very high, even if they get easier with time. What makes those costs bearable is a genuine acceptance of them, and what oftentimes triggers that genuine acceptance is a health scare that shows people what the alternative is.

Unless you have legitimate health issues that make exercise painful, the anticipated cost is a greater than the actual cost.

It is still unrealistic to say that they are “very very high” though. The main barriers imo are not the perceived cost of exercise but the lack of perceived benefits. Certainly a health scare can make exercise seem more appealing.

The benefits of exercise are only seen over time. In the short term, the benefits may not outweigh the efforts so those seeking instant gratification will find it difficult to justify expending the effort. I don’t think it’s the costs being “very very high” that prevent most people from exercising.

Thousands of ancestors did not fight for comfort only for me to whine and complain "more". Embrace the comfort zone, for a heavy price had been paid for it by humanity!

You both seem to be on opposite ends of a spectrum. I agree with OP in that living implies a certain amount of suffering… at some point, life stops giving you things and starts taking things away. That is an inevitable consequence of being alive, and it fucking hurts to loose your best friends, or your parents. But you still can choose for yourself what you make of that.

OP and commenter have experienced opposite ends. Commenter wants to make sure that one’s life experience isn’t extrapolated to everyone else’s and generalized. You can relate more with OP than commenter but they are your individual experiences. Doesn’t mean they’re uncommon. It could be that commenter’s experiences are rarer. Commenter’s ask is to not treat OP’s, yours or even their own life experiences as inevitable facts of life.

Thank you, yep. Also, I've had many awful things happen to me in life, don't get me wrong! (e.g. years of bullying at home and school, years of schizophrenia, homelessness/losing everything etc) My point was just that a lot of the changes I've made, in myself, my beliefs, self-beliefs, my actions etc happened absolutely "without trauma". In my 20s mostly I read a lot of self-help, psychology, spirituality etc books and put a lot of it into practice, which was work, but it wasn't traumatic at all. It was wonderful. I just know that "Nowhere in life change happens without trauma" is very far from true. (But possibly I totally misunderstand what they meant by that)

It's the pain that is inevitable, the suffering is your reaction which you can control.

No. That happens since you are born, you leave the comfort of the uterus, then eventually you cannot suck more your mom's tits, a new baby comes in and you are not longer the smallest one, you have to go to kindergarten,etc, etc, all those are pretty challenging/traumatic events when adjusted by age and then the changes keep coming. By all means not all changes are bad or even difficult but constantly through life you will have plenty of them. One thing I have learned in life is that you need to control very carefully your comfort and pleasure, too little and life is miserable, too much and you become indulgent, weak willed, afraid of change and you stagnate. Most humans live in the "too comfortable" spectrum (this not only means being materially comfortable, it may mean not trying to change, playing it safe, not daring to do things), so one or two whips courtesy of life could work wonders.

The word "traumatic" did not used to mean "somewhat uncomfortable". And most of the ones you mentioned are not even uncomfortable for all kids. Plenty of kids just loose interest in breastfeeding, goes to kindergarten without major issue and is curios/happy/indifferent when siblings come.

Absolutely. Parents have the option of following their children's lead in a way that does not necessarily lead to trauma.

Completely agree. Life's more intense parts that make all those sweet memories that one can be proud of for rest of ones life are well outside the comfort zone.

I see it daily in some of my former peers - literally frozen in space and time. By all means if that's your goal go for it, but when these folks are confronted with somebody more active, somebody who steps out of that comfort zone when needed (or cca lives there semi permanently) their reactions tell a different story.

When I was climbing Matterhorn, (or even Mont Blanc on skis in some places) there were certain times I was shitting myself from fear of the abyss and clear and present danger all around me. When I decided to get into paragliding, first solo flights were not so much different - 1km vertical drop just below your ass is something one can't prepare oneself beforehand. Those memories, and many many more are part of my core and will be there till I die, putting a slight smile on my face whenever I remember them or see the spot from afar.

Heck, being next to my wife when giving both births was not comfortable at all, seeing all that suffering and uncertainty and being able to do very little to alleviate it, but its one of those few moments that define me as a parent and human being.

It depends on how lucky you are. Some people just have to work hard to get where they want to go. Some are just handed everything they need.

Hard work and trauma are not the same. A good days work should leave you feeling tired, not beaten down & broken.

Pushing into the danger zone leaves you open to getting hurt. Enough doing that, and eventually you will. Avoiding pain and avoiding risk is avoiding life.

> avoiding risk is avoiding life.

True. A life well-lived requires courage. Courage in means risking trauma.

Yet if you don't distinguish between trauma and daily hard work, that sets you up to either:

A. Avoid hard work... possibly while fantasizing about overcoming trauma.

B. Create for yourself a life of trauma. This is not growth. It is just self-harm.

Some are just handed everything they need yet still fail. I started out in life with advantages, although didn't realise it at the time. Went through a series of dead end jobs, a failed business, a few failed relationships, ended up on the street.

My real luck came along when someone gave me a chance to get back on my feet and start afresh with the benefit of all that experience and the knowledge of what can happen. I realised that, previously, I was just unmotivated to do what was necessary to achieve anything in life, I was coasting along and not really trying.

I do OK now, I work hard and make sacrifices, don't waste money and invest all my spare income. Not exactly rocket science, I just wish I had started sooner.

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