Comment by sbarre | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sbarre | Hacker News Reader

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In effect, you threatened them into giving you a raise. And I'll say congrats on getting it, but are you at all concerned about your ongoing relationship with management? Do they think "he's good for a few years at least now" in terms of comp adjustment, and/or do you expect a raise again next year?

At my company, I understand (but have not seen first hand) that anyone who tries this (either comes to the table with a competing job offer in hand or threatens to leave in specific terms) is told "we thank you for your time here, best of luck"... Because it is assumed they are not dedicated to the company and so investing further in them is not wise. This is old-school thinking in my opinion, but it's probably still how a lot of places think.

Unless you are _critical_ to a project or team, it's a risky play.

Generally speaking it's a dilemma for sure, and I'm not picking a side here, but I have to imagine there is a lot of tension these days in companies due to these kinds of pressures.

Again, good for you for negotiating a better comp for yourself though!

This is not at all a risky play, because GP was willing to walk.

It’s a true negotiation only if you’re willing to walk out. So to negotiate, realistically assess the availability of other options, and whether you’d accept them.

If you’re not willing to walk, it’s just a game of chicken. That can indeed be risky, as then you might lose what you have with no fallback and no alternative.

I do agree that it is negotiation, but it IS a risky play. While you are negotiating, you have leverage. But it is time dependent leverage. If you stay, you lose, not all, but a large part of that leverage. If you do stay AND they decide that you are a risk for THEM, they may make moves to make them less dependent on you and at some point may RIF you or move you out in some other way and at that point you may not have a fallback option. While it is true that you are a great employee and someone will scoop you up eventually, when you are looking for a job and are currently not working, you LOSE leverage with your new potential employer. It is human psychology that you appear more attractive to an employer when you currently have a job than if you don’t. This puts you at a disadvantage going forward.

I am not saying don’t negotiate with your current employer for a pay raise, but leveraging another job offer does come with some risks you should be aware of. Some employers can see it as “burning a bridge” (I don’t agree with them, but it happens).

Personally what I do is try to negotiate without a job offer in hand (never threaten to quit) and if they don’t give you a good-faith pay raise then start looking for a new job then. It can take a year or more to find a good job you want. Then quit. They have already shown you that they don’t value you enough to pay you more. Paying you more under duress often does not end well.

> what I do is try to negotiate without a job offer in hand

You can have an offer in hand and just not talk about it. Without an offer, it can also be harder to come up with numbers. What if you ask for X at your current job, get it, but then get an offer for X+D from another company one month after?

Some posts read like they threatened their employers, but the politically correct way to negotiate is something like: "I think my market value, based on comparisons with friends with similar experience, is +x% of what I'm getting currently. I'd like to fix this so I stay here longer-term, because I like my current job thanks to y and z. Can we fix this?".

It really depends on the company culture, I've heard places where employees are encouraged to apply elsewhere to know what their market value is (isn't Netflix such an example?), in this case you won't look bad if you do get another offer and bring it up more directly.

Agreed. Also. Make sure you gave six months income easily accessible. Negotiating when living month-to-month is extremely different thing then when you have lots of leeway.

I was talking with a friend of mine a while back. He's getting onto retirement age and I gather he's pretty comfortable financially. And he was telling me, not so much from a direct financial perspective, but how with various organization and team/role changes that had been going on it was just so much less stressful to know that he could just shrug, say "nope, that doesn't work for me," and retire a few years early.

Companies will never, ever be loyal to their employees.

Don't fall for that "being loyal to your company" mindset. You won't get rewarded.

I used to work for a Marketing company that was pretty loyal to us workers. It's since been sold, I have no idea how the new owner has been handling things.

Invert that thinking and it means they assume anyone who is loyal to the company can be treated poorly. There is no reason to be loyal to a company you don’t have a stake in, because they cannot be loyal to you. If making payroll next week requires them to fire you, they will.

Its really no risk at all as they were going to leave for a better offer anyway. the absolute worst case is that management says best of luck and they take a higher paying job. I have gotten a job offer before that included a 15% raise, told my current employer that the new company offered me a 30% raise becuase I really did not want to stay and figured small risk of them offering a match. My current employer unexpectedly matched the made up 30% and I stayed another year. If they did not think I was worth the 30% bump they would not have matched. Then I got an offer for a 55% raise from another company, current employer could not match that one and wished me well. No harm no foul. If the business was doing poorly management would absolutely cut heads, that is the reality of the US based at will employment system. Companies (not managers) have no real loyalty to employees so why have loyalty to them. No need to be aggressive or mean, just taking care of the best interests of one's self and family.

Is "dedicated to the company" mentality still a thing? Let's say the same company buys supplies form supplier X. Then supplier Y shows up with 30% reduced price, same quality. Do you think the company will show "dedication" for the supplier X? Then they should not surprised that engineers are willing to accept a better offer. As for "for now" bit—they should not forget that this is ongoing thing.

Do you think your company would have the same reaction if engineers ask for a substantial (5-figures) bump in stock year over year?

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