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Comment by pydry | Hacker News Reader

If they're pushy I ask if they want to know so that they can A) lowball me B) because they don't trust their own assessment of my value C) something else (this is a trap: there is no C).

One time an HR drone told me it was policy to ask and he didnt know why. I quizzically asked him why as an HR rep he didnt understand the HR policies of the company he worked for. I even asked him if it was policy for HR to not understand HR policy.

I kind of wished I'd told him that I'd recorded this phone call for training purposes :/

It's amazing how sweet and polite you can be with this line of questioning and how humiliating their answers will be (because there is no good answer).

It's a massive red flag so I doubt ive lost any good jobs this way.

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The reason for asking the question is knowing a candidate's salary history reduces the risk of hiring him.

Just like when you buy a house, knowing the house's sale history helps you avoid a big mistake.

On what basis? Knowing the candidates job history may do so, but what signal does the salary itself give?

The company is highly unlikely to answer the question, "what did you pay the previous employee in this position?"; why should I answer "what did the company that previously employed me pay me?"

> what signal does the salary itself give?

That someone else thought you were worth that much.

> why should I answer

You don't have to answer any question you don't want to. But if your previous salary was high, mentioning it will frame the negotiations in a higher salary bracket.

You're looking at this consistently through the lens of someone coming in with an existing high salary who can exploit that during negotiations. But someone coming in from that perspective is likely already in a strong enough economic position to negate some of the leverage that the company starts with.

> That someone else thought you were worth that much.

No, it suggests that someone thought you were worth at least that much. It sets a floor, not a ceiling. If that floor is high, then it may be a valuable signal as long as others corroborate it. If it's low, however, that signal is effectively meaningless. And yet, employers start assuming that a low existing salary does imply a ceiling on - or even accurate measure of - worth, as you seem to be doing.

> that signal is effectively meaningless

No, it isn't.

> or even accurate measure of

I didn't say it was accurate. I said it wasn't meaningless. Nobody is dumb enough to think that it's exact.

> employers start assuming

You're doing a lot of assuming.

But at least you kinda sorta agree now that it is a signal, so, progress!

The problem is, it's not just a signal of your economic value to companies.

It's also a signal of:

* Your past skill at negotiation

* Any past economic disadvantaged background or discrimination

It's also just dirty pool: employers seek to shame / threaten employees to not share compensation data (and, in circumstances where state laws do not prohibit this, terminate employees for discussing comp), and then want to have all the data themselves. It creates a very tilted negotiation field.

If you have poor negotiating skills, hiding your salary history isn't going to help any. What is going to help is making an effort to learn how to do it. A relatively small effort can yield lifetime benefits.

> If you have poor negotiating skills, hiding your salary history isn't going to help any

This is false. If you have poor negotiating skills, and likely a low salary history to go with it - the prospective employer will low-ball your initial offer based on asymmetric knowledge. If they have no idea how much you earned, and are judging you on your skills and experience alone, the initial offer will most likely be a higher number much closer to market salaries. Even if there is zero negotiations and the candidate accepts the first offer, the outcomes are completely different.

> This is false.

That's rather presumptive. If the candidate did not disclose his salary history, the obvious assumption is that it is not a positive, and the candidate will get a lowball offer.

> are judging you on your skills and experience alone

It never works that way. They'll be judging you on what you chose not to reveal, too. Other examples:

1. if you say you have a degree, but are silent about from where, the assumption will be it is not Stanford. The assumption will be it's from a degree mill, or worse, you're lying about the degree.

2. if you didn't submit SAT scores to the admissions dept, the assumption will inevitably be that they are poor scores.

> If the candidate did not disclose his salary history, the obvious assumption is that it is not a positive, and the candidate will get a lowball offer.

I disagree that this is the obvious assumption[1]. Even if I were true, it seems to me like your prior is all lowball offers are the same. They are not. If a candidate was underpaid, an uninformed "lowball" (from prospective employers PoV) would be much higher than if they knew the candidates previous salary was about half of their budget.

1. My salary is above average, but not an outlier,but I will not disclose my salary history before getting an offer. I will not disclose it after getting an offer, even if it's too low for my liking. The only number that matters is the one I am willing to accept. If you share your salary history, you may be lowballed an not even know it. "Anchoring" is a well-studied phenomenon - anchoring on your past salary may leave you underpaid relative to the rest of the market (or your colleagues).

Yes, but you're saying that even if someone improves, a rational actor will use the signal of the history of poor negotiation to collude with others to pay that person less.

And you can demonstrate that you are worth a higher salary and not accept less.

Surely you understand the entire argument, including parts you glossed over:

> It's also just dirty pool: employers seek to shame / threaten employees to not share compensation data (and, in circumstances where state laws do not prohibit this, terminate employees for discussing comp), and then want to have all the data themselves. It creates a very tilted negotiation field.

I have done quite well for myself. But I am concerned that this is one more way that the field is tilted against disadvantaged groups. Past history of being discriminated or of screwing up negotiation stays with you indefinitely, and that's not great. The data asymmetry is not great, either.

Peoples' personal financial information should not be aggregated and shared with employers without their consent.

This is literally a way to suppress folks from the lower class. They can't afford to jump to FANG or some other great job right out of college in a lot of cases, they need to start making money.

All the person has to do is stand firm on the salary he feels he deserves.

Standing firm is a useful negotiation tactic at times, yet no guarantee for success. If companies you want to work for collectively take the stance that you don't deserve the salary you're asking for, possibly influenced by their knowledge of your salary history, then you standing firm means you don't get the job.

Even if it's only some companies doing that, it influences the time it takes for you to find a job that pays what you feel you deserve, increasing the cost of your "stand firm" stance.

Nobody said negotiation offered guarantees.

It's not negotiating that gets you a guaranteed worst case result.

"All the person has to do" reads to me as if you're implying it's a guaranteed road to success, or that it comes at minimal cost. If this wasn't intended, I apologise.

Not negotiating means you get low offers, standing firm might mean you get none at all. I think the latter is the worst case result.

That’s it, do or die and if you’re a better worker than bullshitter, then too bad for you?

In a perfect world without discrimination, prejudice, and built-in social inequalities, you might be right. In the real world, there is a massive power imbalance between the HR people and the applicants, and often circumstances make people get a job with a suboptimal salary for a whole lot of reasons.

If it's so massive, why aren't all workers at minimum wages?

Because, as shocking as it may seem, the world is not black and white. There are intermediates between “dirt poor” and “billionaire”, as well as “lying, exploitative scumbag employer” and “perfect employer”, and also blind luck.

The simple fact that a significant part of the population is systematically paid less than the other for the same work should tell you that you are overly optimistic.

Half the people will always be better in any metric than the other half.

> The simple fact

Saying it's a fact doesn't make it one. I've run several businesses. In no case did the secret cabal of businessmen contact me with the rundown on how to systematically pay half the people less.

> blind luck

It's necessary for you to set yourself up for luck to find you. Luck will not find someone playing video games in the basement.

This is troll level of misunderstanding how the world works.

Believing one has no agency is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Two days ago I met an Afghan who escaped from Afghanistan safely last summer with his family. They lost everything but their lives. He barely speaks English, but he's already up and running with his own business, and drives a new car.

What's he got that you don't have?

I think you're confusing me with someone who hasn't achieved things. I'm doing great in life, but I still have empathy and don't assume others are where they are due to their inherent faults.

Turns out I grew up in a shitty family, I escaped, but that doesn't mean I've lost empathy for those who couldn't.

You seem to think that the world is fair (which is ironic because I bet you've told folks "life isn't fair"). It's not, and no amount of pretending can change that. Folks can do their damnedest and still end up on the streets. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, I'm saying we need to be empathetic and stop doing things that work against them.

I reckon, among other things: ambition, determination, strong character

I do agree that a person should "hunt" a higher reward (money + package) when they can and it's worth the hassle but...

Sometimes they have no choice but compromise to pay their bills.

As a side note: Some do get complacent and don't bother looking anymore, after a while. Stress, fear of rejection, repeated failure being some of the things that bring them down. One needs close to an Iron Will to push ahead.

> Sometimes they have no choice but compromise to pay their bills.

This is America. There are choices. One of them is to choose to upgrade your job skills so you can get a better job. Or upgrade your negotiating skills. Or look at another of the 37,000,000 businesses in the US to choose from. Or start your own business.

The "no choice" thing is just an excuse.

I did express my self poorly there. By "Sometimes they have no choice but compromise to pay their bills" I mean:

Some people will take a low paid job or crazy hours to stall for time until they finish a course or to save money for one. I did that back in the day too. That is why, at least some, I can't blame.

You are right on the second part though. Some people don't want or can't be bothered to try... and some or just tired of it. Either of these categories I don't defend in any way.

Sounds like someone wants to justify their position in the social order XD

Let me tell you, you can make a lot of money (I do), and still have empathy for the situations of others. Believe it or not, regardless of what your libertarian / conservative media tells you, folks are generally working hard and trying their best. Anything else is outrage porn.

There's also a choice to form a union and push back.

That would seem to put your company squarely under the heading of checks notes A) "doesnt put enough faith in own ability to assess talent without it".

If you place a preference on candidates who share the information, your lack of faith in your own ability to value talent is presumably also strong enough that you are willing to forgo the (better) candidates who do not feel compelled to share their salary history.

That's quite the declaration to make to a job applicant.

I agree entirely about the house buying thing. I find the metaphor apt. I like to know. I have never bought a house so, at that, I consider myself an amateur who needs all the help he can get.

No if you do a Phd at CERN or similar tier 1 institutions the pay there is often very low I found that for starting work at a world leading RnD organisation.

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