That’s really frustrating, but the non-hippies haven’t found an answer yet. For example, there’s no milk that you can buy in germany that has the same strict rules for animal welfare as demeter-certified milk, but Demeter also requires the farmer to perform magic rituals such as burying cow horns at full moon. There’s no animal welfare label that adopts the Demeter standards but leaves out the magic.
> Hippies cause climate change with anti-nuclear activism, and run some species of animal into extinction.
Blaming hippies for climate change and for the extinction of the white rhino is unfair. They’re neither the only or even primary believers in magic potions from animal parts nor are they the primary advocate for a huge chunk of the energy we use (think: cars that consume more every year, global travel, larger and larger footprint of land use,…) Quite often they’re among the ones adopting eco-friendly policies before they become mainstream (downsize, recycle & reuse, car free cities, …). They’re certainly wrong on a lot of things, but they’re also advocating for change that no other parties dare to yet.
I think all else being equal, it would be unfair of me to make this characterisation, but I'm not holding these two groups of people to the same standard. I think the two groups we are talking about are people in rural China and Vietnam, and hippies in the Western world who are likely educated to a much higher standard than the rural Chinese and Vietnamese. To be clear: this is not a comment on education standards in China or Vietnam universally — I'm well aware that both countries are among the forerunners in medical science. I do think Western hippies should know better though, which is why I'm more comfortable demonising them rather than people growing up with less opportunity to benefit from a modern education.
As an aside, I don't think Vietnam as neatly fits the Venn diagram I described in my original comment. I lived in Vietnam for a while, and animal welfare is less of a thing there than in most of the West.
I want to be clear also that while I said that "hippies cause climate change", I don't place exclusive blame on them for it. That would be silly. I think it's important to recognise however that the holier than thou attitudes of PETA, XR, Greta Thunberg and others do not actually help alleviate any of the problems facing society, despite their best intentions.
> They’re certainly wrong on a lot of things, but they’re also advocating for change that no other parties dare to yet.
You're right — people and organisations aren't quite so binary. I think that's in line with the spirit of my original comment, although I worded it more antagonistically.
Despite the difference in purchasing power, there’s no indication that rhino horns get sold in substantial quantities in the western sphere. There’s certainly people that will purchase it, but the primary market is in Asia and Africa itself.
Additionally, as with most endangered species, hunting them is only part of what endangers the population. Destruction of habitat for crops or meat, often sold to Europe and the US is a major contribution.
The hippies are truly not at fault here.
> I think it's important to recognise however that the holier than thou attitudes of PETA, XR, Greta Thunberg and others do not actually help alleviate any of the problems facing society, despite their best intentions.
Why would you lump Greta Thunberg in there? By age alone, she’s not to blame for climate change. And what she does explicitly advocate for is in her own words: “Listen to the scientists” https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2019/sep/18/li...
Blaming the hippies for climate change is absurd. When all relevant decisions were made, they were not in power. Nuclear power would not have saved us. There’s more blame to be put on the decision makers at shell than the hippies. Blaming them is a convenient scapegoat for the hard choices we need to make in the future.
You're right, she isn't to blame for climate change, but she is one of the most prominent characters in the world and when she says "personally, I am against nuclear power"[0], people listen. It causes real damage.
She does indeed say "listen to the scientists", but the scientists say we need nuclear power[1]. Which she is against. Confusingly.
> Blaming the hippies for climate change is absurd.
I really don't think it is. I think it is climate alarmists (purely with good intentions, as I mentioned earlier) like Thunberg going back several decades that have pressured governments into abandoning investment in nuclear power.
[0]: https://m.facebook.com/gretathunbergsweden/photos/a.73363095...
[1]: https://environmentalprogress.org/complete-case-for-nuclear
She's a kid. Expecting a kid to be holistically consistent, when most adults still can't, isn't something that is reasonable.
People do listen to her, but... She's a kid. Expecting her to be responsible for all of her actions isn't something that even the law expects.
I'm not arguing in favour of ideological purity. I am merely concerned with pragmatic solutions to the problems that we face. I don't think pressing the power save button on your television makes a meaningful difference. I also don't think banning cars or planes — an idea many environmental activists are enthusiastic about — is realistic.
I think the scale of the problem we face, and the extent of impact necessary to mitigate it, requires investment in nuclear power. Other forms of clean energy are useful, but supplementary.
If Thunberg were wrong about other things, it would be inconsequential. For her to push the wrong message about her core argument though is far less forgivable.
If that's a struggle, come back after you've watched Pandora's Promise with a truly open mind.
The source above addresses why renewables aren't a complete solution. Fossil fuel companies also know that renewables aren't a complete solution, which is exactly why fossil fuel companies funded and ran anti-nuclear propaganda campaigns back in the 1970s, encouraging civilians to opt for solar instead! Because they knew it was never going to happen!
https://atomicinsights.com/smoking-gun-part-18-an-oldie-but-...
The Demeter Bio Label requires “Hornmist” and “Hornkiesel” as fertilizer as per their guidelines, see Section 7.3 (1) and (2) https://www.demeter.de/sites/default/files/richtlinien/richt...
Hornmist is dung-filled cow horns that get buried at full moon preferably, later dig out and spread: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornmist
Hornkiesel is similar, cow horns filled with ground up crystal: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornkiesel
It’s really vexing, because for animal welfare and general biodiversity requirements, they’re the toughest standards, but they have those magic cult-like rituals buried in there.
This perspective adds nothing but a feeling of superiority, I'd rather think about how to replace the culty brand with a secular one and figure out how to work on climate change and corporate misconduct in my small capacity
Additionally, many of them embrace scientific knowledge and are very interested in why, and if, remedies work rather than treating them as magic and de facto superstitious rules.
Get f@cking real.
I'm not a libertarian but have known plenty. None were very wealthy, nor did they want much other than a bit of land, and a small business.
And don't make me talk about flappers...