[1] I define extremist as the satanism / 5g microchip stuff.
[1] I define extremist as the satanism / 5g microchip stuff.
1) I had my booster 2 weeks ago and still am having side effects. I had 2 days of feeling like shit and having my physical output at maybe 20%, slowly recovering but after 2 weeks still around 75% or so. Not sure if it will improve come the new competition season. Same issues were reported with teammates. (I play a sport competitively, 2 days before the vaccine I did a 4.5 hour hard intensive training day, was ok and recovered fine. Just yesterday I had a training match and after 1 hour or so was feeling the lack of strength and difficulty breathing). I am not high risk for covid related issues. Right now, the booster has been quite an issue for me, and if I don't go back to 100% soon, my next year tournaments/ranking is compromised.
2) My kid is at an age they are pushing for vaccine for his age group. His risk based on my country data is pretty much zero (4 severe cases, 3 had co-mobilities that a normal cold would get them in the hospital, and one apparent healthy kid had severe issues but recovered). Risks from the vaccine for this age group are bigger than covid for him. I am against vaccinating him. (mother isn't and he will be)
I am not anti-vaxx (I even got my booster) but if they told me I could be 2+ weeks at reduced physical capacity befora having the booster, I wouldn't have done it.
Being healthy and under 40, and given how quickly these vaccines were rushed out, I merely want to wait until the long-term effects are known. I don't think there's anything extreme about that.
It should be noted that I've had covid (from visiting fully vaccinated and boosted family) and have had the antibody test confirming I should have some degree of resistance now.
However government policy and messaging has all been based on vaccination - not verified natural resistance (which studies show are robust to many variants, unlike vaccination). I can only conclude that the government does not care about health outcomes: It only cares about vaccination status. After being denied entry to restaurants and events and generally punished by society for what I deem to be reasonable caution, it starts to feel very dystopian and gives me all the more reason to pause and wait for long-term studies to be completed.
Incidentally, I'm one of the most vaccinated people on Earth. I've had over 90 vaccines prior to this event, including three just prior to the outbreak of the pandemic. None of them have ever required me to sign a liability waiver. Yet another reason I'm cautious about these vaccines: If the manufacturers are more uncertain of these vaccines than usual then why shouldn't I be?
They have not.
- My heart hurt as hell from the vaccines. A study from the UK shows more risk for myocarditis from the vaccines than from infection in males under 40. [1]
- Studies say vaccines stop/slow transmission but in reality we see more cases in regions with high vaccination rates than we did last year without vaccines. And more cases than in regions with a lower vaccination rate. Breakthrough infections seem to be the norm, not the exception. I’m not the US.
- Natural immunity is superior. [2]
- Vaccines don’t protect against long covid. [3]
- The people at risk are old or have other problems. Statistically you will be fine when you’re under 60.
So when we add all these things up it’s clear to me we should have only vaccinated older people and the ones with health problem. Because the vaccines only work to protect yourself. And you don’t need artificial protection when you’re young and healthy. Just like the flu.
[1] https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/uk-now-reports-myoca...
[2] https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...
[3] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03495-2
Edit: I source my claims yet people downvote me. If you downvote me just because you heard something else in the media I consider you an irrational person.
The actual contents of your sources don't back up the summaries you wrote.
> The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”
> Putrino has noticed that even being fully vaccinated doesn’t necessarily protect against long COVID. Many of his clients were infected before vaccines were rolled out, and had been coping with symptoms for a year or more before they were referred to him. But he has seen about a dozen people who experienced long COVID from ‘breakthrough’ infections — in which vaccinated people catch the coronavirus.
mRNA "vaccines" are not as tested as the pharmaceutical companies want you to believe. They've been in development for years and had serious issues. The mainstream media has severe conflicts of interest, financially, with regard to Pfizer. There are smaller conflicts of interest with regard to J&J and Moderna. The Asch conformity experiments are one example of many that show that even experts can be manipulated. If I do happen to have a bad reaction to the shot, I have no recourse to get compensation for my medical bills. I have very, very low risk of complications from the SARS-Cov-2 virus itself.
The risk analysis does not justify the shot, for me.
I performed my own risk analysis and it should positive results for the vaccine for every population cohort.
Risk of me having major complications from Covid: Very, very low. Less than a hundredth of a percent, IIRC.
Rate of drugs recalled by FDA: Shockingly high.
Rate of fraud and abuse by large pharmaceutical companies: Also very high.
Effectiveness of the vaccine: I have an admittedly non-expert level understanding of statistics, but I did not agree with the efficacy analysis from the initial trials. I assume some modeling was applied, but I found that to be rather opaque. IIRC again - it was about 5k ea of active/placebo, and on the order magnitude of about 100 cases for placebo and 50 for active treatment.
I take it that you did not look at odds ratio. This is probabilistic analysis not if-then-else. With no use of risk analysis this is an emotional judgement, not a logic based one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odds_ratio
> but I did not agree with the efficacy analysis from the initial trials.
???!! What part of the analysis did you disagree with? It was super straightforward.
> it was about 5k ea of active/placebo, and on the order magnitude of about 100 cases for placebo and 50 for active treatment.
These numbers are straight up false. The placebo group had at least 10X more infections than treatment group.
If my numbers were wrong, I apologize. I mostly remember not being impressed enough
Btw, the idea behind a multi stage RCT is to identify the unknown risks in a stage wise manner. The odds ratio does just that.
At this point you left scientific reasoning and logic a long way behind, and there is really no conversation to be had. 94% efficacy is actually extremely fucking impressive.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2035389
"Symptomatic Covid-19 illness was confirmed in 185 participants in the placebo group (56.5 per 1000 person-years; 95% confidence interval [CI], 48.7 to 65.3) and in 11 participants in the mRNA-1273 group (3.3 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 1.7 to 6.0); vaccine efficacy was 94.1% (95% CI, 89.3 to 96.8%; P<0.001)."
Your own memory reflects your unconscious bias
> it was about 5k ea of active/placebo, and on the order magnitude of about 100 cases for placebo and 50 for active treatment.
How do I incorporate unknown long term effects of the vaccine? If both offer unknowns, of unknown severity, why should I intentionally take one to avoid another? How are you quantizing these? You seem so caught up in how others have told you to analyze risk, you are unable to do so for yourself anymore.
>At this point you left scientific reasoning and logic a long way behind,
I find you rather rude
>and there is really no conversation to be had.
Fine by me
I am a professional data scientist[1], and get paid to do these kind of analysis myself every day. Analysis far more advanced than odds ratios. I used that as a simple measure that even laymen can understand. Your non-existent analysis is not an adequate replacement for statistical methods.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29671172#29674008
> I find you rather rude
Whats that popular phrase Ben Shapiro uses ..... - "Facts don't care about your feelings".
If you are willing to lose your job to avoid a protective shot, as demonstrated by every medical review and very basic math, you are long beyond the pale of logic or reason.
I think "anti-vax" sounds inherently extremist and conspiracy-theorist, and isn't an accurate representation of the middle ground here. To be fair, it's more like "pro-choice."
Plenty of vaccines are given to children every year and required for them to attend school, and there hasn't really been any negative side-effects of that policy. It's tough to argue that we should not be required to have any vaccine to attend school, and that would break the status quo in the other direction.
The question then becomes: What could make the Covid vaccine different from other vaccines, such that it shouldn't be required?
* If these vaccines were approved earlier and with more early-stage preliminary data than other vaccines?
* If Covid is not as severe as the diseases we currently require a vaccine for? [1]
[1] The current required vaccines for school in New York, for example, are Diphtheria, Hepatitis B, Measles, Polio, and Chickenpox. The mortality rate and permanent damage for some of these diseases are much higher than Covid. With others, I'm not sure of the pre-vaccine mortality rate as it's been around for a long time.
With all that in mind, Covid spreads as much if not more as the diseases we saw fit to require vaccinations against, and the mortality rate for the older population is high. I think a fair argument is whether schoolchildren should have to be vaccinated to protect against infecting the more vulnerable population.
It's just a smear to divide and rally the left. Nobody who has received the plethora of other standard vaccines and given them to his child can reasonably be called anti-vax for refusing an experimental first-of-its-type vaccine that didn't follow the same rigorous process as the others. Especially not in a climate where natural immunity is ignored and off patent treatment are not pursued.
I got the Pfizer vaccine and a single, final booster. I'm expecting that decision made from fear to come back to haunt me at some point in my life. I have nothing but respect for people who decide not to get a COVID vaccine.
How is it transmitted: "This can happen through sexual contact; sharing needles, syringes, or other drug-injection equipment; or from mother to baby at birth. "[1]
Why do I need it? My kid's doctor paraphrased: um, chart says so and school won't her in if she does not have it.
And that does not mention super annoying conversation with wife, whose entire argument for it is: 'it won't do damage'.
It is infuriating.
The status quo (which differs by country!) for compulsory or somewhat-compulsory vaccination provides a great benchmark for what's seemingly "reasonable."
I think that benchmark--and your analysis seems to show similarly--suggests most developed countries are sorta fine with compulsory vaccines for diseases like Covid. But looking at things through this lens helps contextualize and normalize the current policies--people who are concerned about Covid vaccines might feel a lot better when the vaccine is put into perspective.
First, in the US, seasonal flu vaccines are used by >50% of the population (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/coverage-2021estimates.ht...). Yes, they're not mandatory, but many employers heavily encourage it.
Second, chickenpox is compulsory for public schooling in a majority of states, and has a CFR of about 1/100k (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/varicella.html#:~....), which is, if I am reading https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.7384... correctly, significantly lower than the covid CFR for the same age strata.
Obviously it also makes sense to consider things like safety of the vaccine, risk to vulnerable populations, etc. But just on its face, it's not obvious that the covid vaccines are in any way contrary to prior precedent, at least not to me.
Covid has a 2%? mortality rate against the immune naive, with a much greater proportion requiring hospitalisation and suffering long term health consequences. I believe that is pretty similar to many other illnesses we vaccinate against.
There are varied and complex reasons for people being anti-vax, but none of them are grounded in science.
https://www.fda.gov/patients/drug-development-process/step-3...
In the case of Pfizer-BioNTech, the Phase 3 trial was started before Phase 2 even completed, and was completed in less than 8 months.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04713553
Even with the rather expanded definition of "died while infected with COVID-19," the mortality rate is approximately 1.5% (845627 deaths / 55202306 cases) in the United States, or 25% lower than you claimed.
I doubt that you've really never heard any opposition to covid vaccines that aren't deranged things, but okay, I'll bite.
Simply being against forcing people to get covid vaccinated is now defined as "anti-vaccine"... So if, by chance, you also don't think people should be forcefully injected, you're anti-vax too.
Covid vaccines clearly had some positive effects, especially for vulnerable people, but:
* I don't think the balance is right between the risk of catching the virus versus forcing everyone to get vaccinated every few months
* If you think there are no problems with vaccines how do you contend with Astra Zeneca being abandoned in so many places and Moderna being disallowed for under 30s?
* Studies show that kids have more heart issues from the vaccine than from the virus. It's a sick society where we care more about the risk of passing the virus to adults than the risk on the kids.
* If everyone is following the science, why do so many countries have different policies? Especially when it comes to masking and vaccinating kids?
* It's not great to play along with the removal of your rights. How are you ever going to recover them?
But most importantly:
* I shouldn't have to have a reason. We used to think that every man is his own master and he's allowed to make wrong decisions. Do you know how some people have cards saying "do not resuscitate"? Science may decide that the person needs to be alive so he needs to be forcefully resuscitated, but we used to respect people's choices anyway.
Now, because of an infectious disease (as if we've never had one before), we've thrown the individual out the window and worship The Science, even though every government as a different The Science.
I have had covid and I am vaccinated with JnJ but I will not be getting boosters. I would like to see the longer term effects of mRNA vaccinations first. I have all my other vaccinations. Most of my immediate family is not vaccinated for covid (while having all other vaccines) and has a similar position.
Various countries in Europe have balked at or delayed vaccinating under 18s for this reason. Interestingly for people who got the mRNA vaccines there was almost no myocarditis after the first dose, so this was mostly a second dose effect. We may not have enough data right now to say whether a booster dose is even more likely to produce heart damage but it’s possible.
Since myocarditis is also a risk of COVID itself, it’s probably still a better deal for many people in this age group to get vaccinated. In fact public health officials seem to think that it’s a good deal for the average person in this group. However, if you are a healthy man in his early twenties whose absolute risk from COVID is already very low, there’s a decent argument that you should be given a chance for informed consent and not have this mandated.
This is even more true if you’ve already had COVID and acquired natural immunity. In many countries proof of infection functions the same as proof of vaccination in terms of accessing services, it arguably should In this case as well.
The sorts of mandates we have had in place for things like MRR are different because we have decades of data on the safety and efficacy of these vaccines, and we know that we can lose herd immunity if we don’t have high compliance. The current COVID vaccines are clearly not providing herd immunity, given that omicron is tearing through highly vaxxed countries like the UK. Many experts are basically acknowledging that nearly everyone will get omicron eventually.
Also, unlike measles which can be kept at bay by mass vaccination, COVID is rampant in massive animal reservoirs like whitetail deer, which means that we aren’t going to make it extinct like we did with polio or smallpox. If the best that can be said about the vaccines is that they reduce hospitalization and death risk for those who take them, then is there justification for a mandate? You can argue that reduced severity is important for protecting the hospitals from being overwhelmed. But does that justify a mandate for boosters amongst college kids whose absolute risk of hospitalization from COVID is already very very small?
Anyway, I’m as fully vaxxed as I can be in my jurisdiction, but I don’t begrudge people making different choices for themselves in a case like this where it’s more about personal risk management than public benefit. Rational decisions are being made and the vaccination rates amongst elderly are much much higher than people in their twenties.
I also think that part of our resiliency as a society is having a range of perspectives. Even if the paranoid personality is annoying or maladaptive, sometimes they help bring things to light.
In the case of mRNA vaccine skeptics like Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, they is just consistently very far out on precautionary principle spectrum. Like they don’t think you should learn the sex of your child before birth because it would increase the psychological trauma of a miscarriage. A lot of their concern boils down to overweighing the unknown unknowns (from my perspective). I’m on the other end of the precautionary spectrum, but I have come to value the perspective and role that people like this play in our society, and I think they should be part of the conversation.
My children are very young, my wife and I are young and we workout 6 days a week. We eat healthy and are healthy.
I'm not going to give my children a vaccine against something that has a miniscule mortality rate. And I'm not going to get vaccinated because I'm not morbidly obese or old. Lose weight and stay safe.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...
They're over ninety percent more likely than their unvaccinated counterparts to remain uninfected, in which case they will not transmit the disease.
The questions regarding reduced viral shedding among the infected but vaccinated, and how much that effects that population's transmission rate, is interesting but probably secondary, I would think. (I don't know quite whether those were all rhetorical questions or something you wanted a dissertation on :D )
Not against omicron, it basically ignores vaccines. Vaccinated people might be a bit less serious, but they still get ill and we have had many super spreader events among vaccinated populations where almost everyone exposed got it.
Vaccine might reduce spread a little, but vaccinated people spread it so much already that it can't be anywhere close to 90% not spreading.
Omicron increases vaccine escape rates from about 5% to 30% which is bad, but not ignoring vaccines.