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Comment by danuker | Hacker News Reader

> The psychological effect on most is that they start to feel like suckers for not pushing the envelope themselves and it’s dangerous because a country of jaded people is not one that can work together to solve common problems.

Absolutely. Thank you for hitting the nail on the head!

Problem is, the looting can only last so long, until everything has been looted.

I suspect not much longer; if you put some of your wealth someplace undebase-able (say, gold or crypto), there is a chance you will make it to the other side.

See also Atlas Shrugged, where the producers keeping the world afloat ("Atlas") decide to go on strike and hide due to populist politics bleeding them dry of their hard work ("shrugged").

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Neither gold nor crypto will bring you to what ever "the other side" is (so much wistles).

Crypto currencies are bound to a functioning infrastructure and can be unpredictably volatile. Gold is no currency at all in the sense of a common trade value and this is the essence of it all. No, actually its labor. Labor is the only kind of value and any "worth" (eg money) has to be translatable to that. Crypto and gold is not.

> Labor is the only kind of value and any "worth" (eg money) has to be translatable to that. Crypto and gold is not.

crypto and gold can be exchanged for labor products in much the same way that other wealth can be (a house, stocks, bonds) — by first being exchanged for money. what do you mean when you say these things aren’t “translatable” into labor?

> "the other side" is (so much wistles)

What I mean here concretely is failure/bankruptcy of the current system after people get fed up, and re-emergence/prioritization of institutions of justice and rule of law.

This may be just a dream however. Don't hold your breath.

> Gold is no currency at all in the sense of a common trade value

I don't mind it not being a commonly transacted medium if I can buy and sell it without a lot of fees. For my purposes, even cheap good cars or real estate constitute a store of value, albeit less liquid ones.

> Labor is the only kind of value and any "worth"

Value is in the eye of the beholder. If I value my productivity less than you do yours, I might not accept payment in work.

>Value is in the eye of the beholder.

This is a common true-ish sentence but too vague and in fact inadequate in this topic. The problem lies in how value is measured and this is imo the root of nowadays turmoil.

Ultimately valuable is, what satisfies essential needs (food, shelter, clothing, meds, etc), this is the bottom line. Gold is worthless on its own. Every society revolves around these needs and if not, that society may not last any longer. Only labor provides those values and thus sustains a society but not all members profit from it, "measured", the same way. Income from capital extracts out from labor value. The poor get poorer, while the rich get lazier.

I assume your plan with crypto/gold is to dodge a financial crisis but why should a future society respect the profiteers of the exploitative former? Maybe invest in something that enables labor, eg. land.

> The problem lies in how value is measured and this is imo the root of nowadays turmoil.

People have always had differing values, this is nothing new. When people believe that only x is ultimately valuable, and y is not, It allows for people who understand that people have always valued things differently to exploit that for their own gain.

The people who understand that not all food, all shelter, all clothing, all meds, all land, all x is valued by everyone the same will forever have the upper hand against those who are ultimately convinced of the absoluteness of their values.

> Neither gold nor crypto will bring you to what ever "the other side"

If only there was some kind of marketplace where you could make incredible amounts of money with your 100% certain understanding of the future, this would be incredibly useful knowledge!

Alas, it doesn't exist and all there is to do is impotently yell at other people on the internet that they are wrong.

>Labor is the only kind of value

I wonder if we took a survey of professional economists how many would agree with this statement. I'm going to say less then 1%.

Has labor ever been used as the basis of a national currency?

> See also Atlas Shrugged, where the producers keeping the world afloat ("Atlas") decide to go on strike and hide due to populist politics bleeding them dry of their hard work ("shrugged").

And the former aristocrat from Tsarist Russia shrugged, went to America and made mediocre literature and a widely discredited philosophy.

Uh, "former aristocrat"? Her father was a business owner before the October Revolution, a class usually pretty distinct from aristocrats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand#Early_life

Burger, then.

Atlas Shrugged was the #2 favorite of entrepreneurs and business leaders, after the Bible, according to surveys by Fortune up until the ‘00s.

She’s had a profound positive impact on America, sent countless young men and women into entrepreneurship and wealth creation.

If we had Ayn Rands today, we’d have discontent youth building alternatives instead of throwing tantrums and destroying.

> Atlas Shrugged was the #2 favorite of entrepreneurs and business leaders, after the Bible, according to surveys by Fortune up until the ‘00s.

Could entrepeneurs and business leaders be susceptible to mediocre literature and terrible philosophies/ideologies? (Surely not…)

Can you provide a link to the list with Atlas Shrugged at #2? I’m not asking because I don’t believe you, I do believe you. I just want to see the list so I can avoid reading any of the other books on it.

Oh, stitches, me. Thank you.

> positive impact

[citation needed]

Atlas Shrugged is a semi-coherent libertarian screed written by someone who fetishized STEM but lacked any hard skills. The characters have the emotional depth of a wet paper bag.

Sadly every half wit middle manager & pencil pusher thinks that they're atlas, meanwhile there org survives on tacit knowledge of underlings who don't 'work to rule'

> See also Atlas Shrugged, where the producers keeping the world afloat ("Atlas")

For the record: in Antiquity, Atlas doesn't hold the world, but the sky.

See https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2017/02/09/misunderstood-m...

>undebase-able (say, gold or crypto)…

Can’t debase something that has no base.

Crypto has upper limit on supply (usually) but but no lower limit on demand. It can go to zero tomorrow based on feelings.

In case of crypto you can easily go to 0 or near 0. However gold is historically stable in terms of a real value.

I would diversify.

Cryptocurrency is maturing, and that might mean we will see less volatility.

https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/volatility-index/

And gold has also fallen 40% from $1825 in Aug 2011 to $1061 in Nov 2015.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-...

"Atlas Shrugged" is fiction.

Yes, and it's also bad writing, and utterly stupid.

It's strongly inspired by the Soviet Union.

So is Animal Farm.

But it becomes less so every year.

So does "a clockwork orange". I guess it will be a race to see if the underclasses destroy society or the billionaires. My bet is both.

I thought history suggested, when it is a class struggle, the billionaires ultimately lose. Usually lose their heads, are lined up against walls.

Since the 1970s they are taking the whole prize.

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