Why do these discussions tend to be so NOT nuanced or objective? Each side has a different view of the same events, different populations are fed different propaganda. Why are we seeing certain stories in the news and not others? Why at this time? Why the aggressive downvotes at the mention of other perspectives, with replies kind of shouting back and forth? Isn't there anything to be gained examining things from both sides? etc
And the exact same thing happens on the other side, for the same reasons. Try to talk about US militarism, and people bring up China and Xinjiang.
So when you're in a discussion about one side of that, and someone brings up the other side of that, the priors lean toward it being bad faith. Because there has been so much bad faith in the past, it's hard to believe that someone bringing it up now is doing so in good faith.
If you want to actually have that discussion, you almost certainly can't do it in a thread that started off talking about one side or the other. You'd have to begin in a neutral place. (I don't know if you can pull it off even there...)
List could go on forever.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: you've unfortunately been doing this a ton - in fact you may even be using HN primarily for nationalistic battle at this point. That's seriously not ok (regardless of which country you have a problem with) and we ban accounts that do it. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, I'd appreciate it.
Edit: this has been a problem for a long time:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29407968
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22893867
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22880789
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22827321
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22827309
As I seem to have already told you more than once, I don't want to ban you because you've been here for a long time and also made good contributions. But if you persist in not using the site as intended, we're going to end up having you. So would you please fix this?
I stop replying to certain people or to comments cos you keep warning me with stuff not mentioned in guidelines, and now you’re claiming I think my country is superior. Basically you just don’t want any discussion that might invoke a response.
I even avoid replying to tombh insulting me and I still get in trouble.
What do you want me to fix exactly?
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Not only does it take the community further into hell—just what we don't want, and good for nobody—but you actually discredit your own point of view when you post like this. If you happen to be advocating for the truth, or some aspect of it, that means discrediting the truth as well. This hurts everybody.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
I know how difficult and frustrating it is to be advocating a minority/contrarian view whilst feeling surrounded by endless wrongness on the internet, but at least on HN, if you're going to wade into such swamps, you need to build capacity to do so thoughtfully, neutrally, without swipes, and so on. That's not easy, but we all need to work on it.
Railing and fulminating against wrongness (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29661759) actually feeds the wrongness you're seeking to counter. You're gifting it with new feelings of validation and righteousness when you do that. This is not in your interest, and it's damaging to the community (such as it is) here.
But it's way, way worse than that. At the most surface level there's Julian Assange, he's not even from the country that he'll be disappeared in. But deeper than his case are the cases that he actually highlighted, US war crimes. The US with formal support from Europe has had a decades long foreign policy of violently destroying communism (see the history of South America and South East Asia). Communism has its fair share of evil, but like it or not, it is a fundamentally valid criticism of the West's capitalism. 10s of millions of innocent well-meaning communist supporters have been killed whether directly or through Western support, by the West.
China is not good, but it's just not comparable in scale to the West's evils. Indeed I believe it shows a profound, albeit typical, ignorance of history to think that China is a comparable threat to the world.
Our identity it's not tied to our governments, unlike you, we criticize them ALL the time. They do horrible things, but because a Western government has done horrible things doesn't mean China gets to do it too.
We are not attacking you as a Chinese citizen, we are attacking the governments who do wrong.
This comment chain is specifically about China's government's atrocities. If every time we criticized one government, we had to include all of them in the same post, that would be insane trying to list every single thing.
I think something to bear in mind with the topic of comparing the West and China is that they aren't actually 2 independent entities that have now come of age, each imposing its unique stamp on the world. What China is today is fundamentally defined by European colonialism. Chinese culture is actually thousands of years older than European culture, and for the majority of human history was the most advanced, richest and successful, at least certainly in comparison to Europe pre and post the Romans. Now recall what Europe did to Native American, African and Australian cultures, which cover almost half the planet. China has something called The Century of Humiliation[1]. Those colonial forces that banished the Cherokee, the Inca, the Mbundu, the aborigines, to the pages of history, eventually arrived in China, and I think quite understandably China fought tooth and nail to avoid the same fate.
So when I criticise those in the West that criticise China, I'm not just trying to equalise the argument to include criticism of all governments. China is not just another evil empire. Modern China is specifically what happens when you have the desire, and more importantly means, to defend yourself against the forces of Western colonialism. China famously burnt its colonial fleet in the 15th Century[2], they are actually not a naturally colonial culture. A metaphor could be something like: when you punch so many people so hard, that most of them die, it's impossible for them to criticise your behaviour, because they're, well dead. So when one of them, after seeing all the dead people, and then getting punched themselves, manages to survive, and even starts to return punches in order to survive, those "fists" of criticism are an extremely understandable survival instinct.
Pointing the finger at China's "punches" is profoundly ironic, because not only have we thrown more punches, and caused more destruction, but we incited those punches.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages#Causes_o...
China has a long history colonialism, just like pretty much any other empire in history. So unsure how you can claim they don’t have colonial nature.