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Comment by evancoop | Hacker News Reader

With each new opportunity to learn to code without the expense of a four-year degree in Computer Science, don't we reach a point at which either: 1) The four-year degree in CS is actually seen as something of a negative indicator 2) We acknowledge the silent part out loud, e.g. "the college degree is a signal, not a delivery mechanism for professional skills." ?

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I'm saddened that we're comparing a degree in CS to a subscription to Codecademy.

I am curious if you've gotten a degree yourself, and whether that degree was from a reputable school. My CS degree is one of my proudest and most difficult accomplishments in my life.

The difference in someone with a 4 year CS degree and a bootcamp graduate is jarringly apparent and one that I have uncomfortable experience with.

My following statement will cause me to be downvoted, because the truth makes people uncomfortable. Computer Science education is a rite of passage, like getting a black belt, becoming a priest, doctor or anything else that requires intense study with peers for extended period of time.

The CS degree at a top school is more than a signal, its a badge of honor and respect. You may choose to ignore it to your own peril.

My first thought is that "writing code" is not the same as CS, of course.

Second, your comment about "a reputable school" is interesting and indeed, probably, part of the disagreement with some people. On one hand, I'm open to the idea that someone can get a rigorous computer science education at any school, regardless of the prestige or admissions rate or rankings. On the other hand, I work with a bunch of people who are in some stage of earning an undergraduate degree through various online programs, and I sometimes see them doing schoolwork when things are slow (e.g. on a night shift), and I'm shocked that it confers college credit. I'm talking about classes on basic algebra that I learned in the 8th or 9th grade. Someone with a master's degree from a similar program bragged about writing his entire "master's thesis" in one sitting while drinking and receiving a grade of 100%... Anyway, it bugs me that they might think of their degree(s) as equivalent to mine. It's also easy to imagine that they might end up having a low opinion of all college degrees afterward, not realizing how much more rigorous the experience can be at other schools.

Funny how people without aeronautics degrees built first rockets. Degree is just a paper that certifies you. There are many people i know that acquired more knowledge outside than their classes. Don’t compare graduates with people fresh out of boot camp. There are people who never stop learning after boot camp, they build skills over time and can even surpass “degree” holders. But like i said, if that paper certifies and allows you to become lawyer great, but that doesn’t mean a person who spent 4 years studying law is any different.

> "Funny how people without aeronautics degrees built first rockets."

Goddard and von Braun both had a PhD in Physics. Yeah, funny, isn't it?

Lol the first rockets were built in China and were pioneered by Tipu Sultan in India, guess not all knowledge is college taught.

A badge of honor and respect is also known as a “signal.” Not that signaling is inherently bad, quite the opposite, signaling is essential. But it would be great if we could discover cheaper and more accessible ways to signal.

PS: I don’t think a CS degree is just signaling, but it could be improved an order of magnitude if the incentives of the professors and the institutions were aligned with teaching people marketable skills.

Yes I totally understand your point of view. I spent almost a decade paying off a six figure debt for my CS degree. The funniest part? I learned almost nothing about web development in school. No marketable skills that would have really helped me when I first started my actual job! How can I argue this is a good thing?

Well, the best analogy I can think of is a black belt in karate. It takes 10 years or whatever to get that. It has no marketable purpose. Why do it? The answer is more than "to get a job". It's about Discipline. Focus. Intense research into fundamentals. Stretching your limit if what you can learn in a weekend. Writing half a page of assembly code on a piece of paper. Debugging a C program. Red black trees. These have no purpose, but when reflecting on these experiences, I would not trade them for a second for "Intro to Javascript and HTML".

But should most people do it primarily for that reason? At the end of my 4½ years, I think not.

The longer my career has gone on - the more I realize the value of my CS degree.

Early on in my career I used to think my CS degree was a waste. But the more people I worked with that DIDN'T have a CS degree - it became clear to me how much value the degree had.

All the seemingly theoretical / non-practical things we learned - I would see others get stuck and unable to progress. And for me, these were just things I understood inherently.

Sure, I think if you only ever plan to work in startups and be a mid-level engineer - maybe a degree isn't worth it. But I think it's definitely worth it if you have bigger ambitions for your career.

Probably 1. There indeed is very little need for a CS degree for most web front-end/backend because very smart people (nearly all of who have CS degrees) pre-packaged very complex stuff together well enough that even people with modest skills can create salable code by gluing it all together, much like a plumber or electrician using off-the-shelf parts. So the software industry will bifurcate into a saturated, lower-paid market of these front-line coders and a handful of jobs requiring CS knowledge that build the tools, libraries, and services the front-line coders are putting together. That reduction in demand will lead to less CS majors and very few CS majors will be found doing that type of coding.

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