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Comment by dncornholio | Hacker News Reader

5km is more of a bike ride length than a car ride length, so to me cars still don't make sense

Have you ever taken a 30 minute bike ride over ice-and-snow-covered roads, in -20C temperatures, in the dark, on roads with no street lights or sidewalks (the sun sets at 2:00pm)?

If so, good for you, you rugged badass! But I’m not sure we need to force everybody to do the same.

I think it's not that bad, I've done similar in the past and still cycle everywhere, no mtter the weather.

Just get a good bicycle light (B&M have some dynamo powered 80lux or 100lux lights) and then it's easily possible.

Country roads might be ok for biking, even in winter with the right equipment (clothes, spike tires) but there can be roads with 100 km/h traffic and very narrow shoulders. And the flying sleet and salt etc... Sure, there are quite many bike roads and side roads but not available everywhere. And there are some buses too. But again, since it's so sparse, buses are hard to make work. Taxis do work.

Basically, some parts of the country are really "car country" - and it makes total sense there.

One shouldn't try to shoehorn cars into city centers, I agree about that. This is something else.

And you want young teens driving in those conditions? Remember, these “tractors” are speed limited to a fraction of 100km/h too.

Yes, much rather I'd have the teens driving "light cars" which are regular cars at 80 km/h in those conditions than for example flimsy moped cars. Cars have a tremendous amount of safety nowadays, and you get a lot of features for a little bit of money.

We have excellent driver training, including training how to drive in slippery conditions, cars have regulation that they need automatic light leveling, there's yearly checkups for cars etc.

I wouldn't want a teenager driving on ice and snow covered roads in the dark on roads with no street lights.

That’s like saying you wouldn’t want a teenager driving in the city vs the suburb, or a freeway vs regular road. These are normal conditions in Sweden.

The grandparent was making out the roads to be incredibly dangerous, that you couldn't possibly ride a bike on them. (Dark, ice covered, no street lamps!). If they are really so dangerous that you can't ride a bike on them then they are too dangerous for a teenager to be driving on.

So, lock the kids up during winter? Where I live, the roads are barely walkable during winter. Public transport is 8km away.

Cars with proper winter tires is far easier to keep steady, than a bike. Especially if windy.

Most teens out here drive tractors to get around. Personally, I'd prefer if Finland went the Swedish route here - an old Volvo with limited speed is still less dangerous than a large tractor.

Haha, ever heard of winter tires? Or winter driving instruction courses? Which btw are mandatory at least in Finland

Ever heard of fat tires? Snow doesn't mean you can't bike.

This is false.

I grew up in rural Michigan, so similar weather and density to the Nordic countries. There are PLENTY of times when driving is perfectly safe and I wouldn't bike. And I prefer walking/biking to driving most of the time.

There is a large difference between using a bike on icy roads covered in snow and using a car on the same road.

I wouldn't want a teenager driving on ice and snow covered roads in the dark on roads with no street lights.

So, pretty much outside city limits in every state in America that gets snow?

Most roads are in cleared of snow and ice and are usually well lit. If the street is not well lit and it is covered in ice then yes a teenager should not be driving on it.

I live in suburban Minneapolis. We go weeks with ice covered neighborhood streets, and they are lit only at intersections. Teens learn to drive safely in this environment.

Teens have a higher fatality rate than almost every other driving cohort except 80+ and winter driving conditions are more dangerous than non winter conditions. Teens do not drive safely compared to other age groups in this environment or any other environment.

Fatality rate is more or less irreverent. Pretty much nobody is dying from snow caused mishaps.

Teens die a lot because of gross errors in judgement, drunkenly flying off a cliff on their way to prom with eight people in the car, that kind of stuff. Those kinds of errors mostly tangential to snow and lighting.

By "outside city limits" I believe OP was being general, not specifically talking about large cities.

I live in a rural area. I can think of exactly four street lights that are within a 10-mile radius of my home, and I'm not that far outside town. So yeah, it's pretty dark at night.

Yes, roads around here are mostly cleared of snow and ice, but they're still dirt/gravel roads and the snow is usually pushed off to the shoulders where a bicycle would be riding, and even then, I'm sure you can understand that dirt absorbs water and will then refreeze. It's not a particularly safe place to be riding a bike.

> Have you ever taken a 30 minute bike ride over ice-and-snow-covered roads, in -20C temperatures, in the dark, on roads with no street lights or sidewalks (the sun sets at 2:00pm)?

This is exactly the circular problem that everyone in Sweden always points at: the roads are too dangerous and poorly developed for people to cycle on safely - therefore the answer is... more cars driving unsafely on the roads, making them too dangerous for cyclists.

It's a car-culture here. Nothing will ever happen to change that.

Incidentally, anyone romanticizing this as some sort of grassroots, badass rebellious movement should bear in mind that around big cities like Stockholm, parents buy their teenage kids Porsches to be converted to EPA-traktors.[0]

[0] https://www.dn.se/sthlm/han-kor-porsche-i-30-kilometer-i-tim...

let me guess: you live somewhere where winter is 10C with occasional rain? nordic winters are brutal - riding a bike in winter is suicidal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

Riding a bike in Finland seems to work just fine, given decent infrastructure. (Where "given decent infrastructure" is a constraint for practically any vehicle).

This video is from the fifth largest city in Finland, so that hardly counts as a rural area with long distances

This is what the roads looks like in the rural areas during winter https://www.google.com/search?q=maantie+talvella&source=lnms...

I have cycled 12km everyday to school when I was young, but it was on flat roads. In winter it was sometimes -5 to -15 and around those temps, sometimes I would fetch a ride, because I agree, in winter it can be harsh, but other then that, it was biking every day.

Rain is even worse than snow by the way. Wind is also killing. But if it was a snowy day with not much wind, cycling is actually fun.

What's the weather like in Northern Scandinavia?

Seeing the comments here I am happy for the swedes that Americans with their safety obsession are not allowed to vote in Sweden.

Try doing a 5km ride on ice in -15 C, and then report back about making sense.

Studded tires and pogies work. My dad commuted regularly to work by bike more than 5km in the winter in Alaska at those temps.

Edit: He lives in Fairbanks, where the fat bike originated. He doesn't ride one since he doesn't like the bounce, but people ride them all winter for fun. I think, like many places, the key is having trails to ride on to improve safety.

Sure, it works. I've done it.

You'll wish you were in a car the whole time you're doing it though.

He owns a car and regularly chose to commute by bike during the winter. Now that he is retired, he still bikes during the winter purely for fun, as do many other people. That may not be the choice everyone would make, but my point us that it can make sense and bikes are quite feasible during the winter.

Of course, the availability of trails has a huge impact on that choice and it's safety. Sled dogs, snow machines, and now other bike rider make sure that there are lots of trails all over.

That's a routine & enjoyable commute for a lot of people (usually that weather means more packed snow than ice though). Along with doing a lot of recreational outdoor stuff at that weather. You want proper clothing of course.

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