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Comment by Gravityloss | Hacker News Reader

There are moped cars that are expensive, unreliable and quite unsafe.

There was the initiative to install a speed limiter to regular cars to turn them into "light cars" for kids but that didn't pass for some reason. EU regulations? How is it possible in Sweden?

Countryside can be really sparse, with current amount of people a kid's nearest friend might live 5 km away. Cars make so much sense there. Lots of people learn to drive really young with a "peltoauto", a field car. That's legal as it's on private property.

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> quite unsafe.

For the occupant yes. Less so for everyone around.

> that didn't pass for some reason.

It's still a 1500kg block of steel in the hands of people with lesser developed sense of danger (still applies to some adults but that is a different discussion). I get the "people need to go places" but apparently there are no adults who can provide the "service" of driving someone somewhere in the countryside.

The tractor exception was valid in my place as well and was dealt with in a updated law, it's not european afaik simply most countries banning it.

One can put a limit to 1000kg and 50km/h for cars that can be driven from 15-16 years old. The way it is today, at 16 you can fly a plane in most of Europe but you cannot drive a car. Does this make any sense?

> It's still a 1500kg block of steel in the hands of people with lesser developed sense of danger.

In the US people start driving at 16, no? In Austria and Germany you can get an early license with 17.

I got my moped license with 15, but that is probably a hard sell in the north ...

I'd say reduce the age at which people can get a license, make drivers education better, and put a limit on horsepower (same way it is done with motorcycle licenses).

For the US driving at 16 is common especially in the rural states. We could also get our learners permit at 14 so I could drive with my parents in the car. Mostly for me it meant I was the one then doing the 5hr drive to my grandparents place.

Also several of my friends got mopeds at 14 and would drive them around town. Not good for driving on gravel roads but was great for the kids in town.

The farm kids out of town would drive their parents trucks/cars in and around their property starting around 13/14 but that was generally to haul feed and equipment around.

Most US states allow you to get a learners permit at 15.5 years, so that you can get your license when you first turn 16.

There are limitations- an accompanying adult, number of non adult passenger restrictions to limit distractions etc, but the reality is they are still in control of the vehicle.

Out in the country, it is relatively common to drive yourself to school the last year or two. Trying to raise the age to 18 would not go over well at all!

5km is more of a bike ride length than a car ride length, so to me cars still don't make sense

Try doing a 5km ride on ice in -15 C, and then report back about making sense.

Studded tires and pogies work. My dad commuted regularly to work by bike more than 5km in the winter in Alaska at those temps.

Edit: He lives in Fairbanks, where the fat bike originated. He doesn't ride one since he doesn't like the bounce, but people ride them all winter for fun. I think, like many places, the key is having trails to ride on to improve safety.

Sure, it works. I've done it.

You'll wish you were in a car the whole time you're doing it though.

He owns a car and regularly chose to commute by bike during the winter. Now that he is retired, he still bikes during the winter purely for fun, as do many other people. That may not be the choice everyone would make, but my point us that it can make sense and bikes are quite feasible during the winter.

Of course, the availability of trails has a huge impact on that choice and it's safety. Sled dogs, snow machines, and now other bike rider make sure that there are lots of trails all over.

That's a routine & enjoyable commute for a lot of people (usually that weather means more packed snow than ice though). Along with doing a lot of recreational outdoor stuff at that weather. You want proper clothing of course.

What's the weather like in Northern Scandinavia?

Have you ever taken a 30 minute bike ride over ice-and-snow-covered roads, in -20C temperatures, in the dark, on roads with no street lights or sidewalks (the sun sets at 2:00pm)?

If so, good for you, you rugged badass! But I’m not sure we need to force everybody to do the same.

I think it's not that bad, I've done similar in the past and still cycle everywhere, no mtter the weather.

Just get a good bicycle light (B&M have some dynamo powered 80lux or 100lux lights) and then it's easily possible.

Country roads might be ok for biking, even in winter with the right equipment (clothes, spike tires) but there can be roads with 100 km/h traffic and very narrow shoulders. And the flying sleet and salt etc... Sure, there are quite many bike roads and side roads but not available everywhere. And there are some buses too. But again, since it's so sparse, buses are hard to make work. Taxis do work.

Basically, some parts of the country are really "car country" - and it makes total sense there.

One shouldn't try to shoehorn cars into city centers, I agree about that. This is something else.

And you want young teens driving in those conditions? Remember, these “tractors” are speed limited to a fraction of 100km/h too.

Yes, much rather I'd have the teens driving "light cars" which are regular cars at 80 km/h in those conditions than for example flimsy moped cars. Cars have a tremendous amount of safety nowadays, and you get a lot of features for a little bit of money.

We have excellent driver training, including training how to drive in slippery conditions, cars have regulation that they need automatic light leveling, there's yearly checkups for cars etc.

I wouldn't want a teenager driving on ice and snow covered roads in the dark on roads with no street lights.

That’s like saying you wouldn’t want a teenager driving in the city vs the suburb, or a freeway vs regular road. These are normal conditions in Sweden.

The grandparent was making out the roads to be incredibly dangerous, that you couldn't possibly ride a bike on them. (Dark, ice covered, no street lamps!). If they are really so dangerous that you can't ride a bike on them then they are too dangerous for a teenager to be driving on.

So, lock the kids up during winter? Where I live, the roads are barely walkable during winter. Public transport is 8km away.

Cars with proper winter tires is far easier to keep steady, than a bike. Especially if windy.

Most teens out here drive tractors to get around. Personally, I'd prefer if Finland went the Swedish route here - an old Volvo with limited speed is still less dangerous than a large tractor.

Haha, ever heard of winter tires? Or winter driving instruction courses? Which btw are mandatory at least in Finland

Ever heard of fat tires? Snow doesn't mean you can't bike.

This is false.

I grew up in rural Michigan, so similar weather and density to the Nordic countries. There are PLENTY of times when driving is perfectly safe and I wouldn't bike. And I prefer walking/biking to driving most of the time.

There is a large difference between using a bike on icy roads covered in snow and using a car on the same road.

I wouldn't want a teenager driving on ice and snow covered roads in the dark on roads with no street lights.

So, pretty much outside city limits in every state in America that gets snow?

Most roads are in cleared of snow and ice and are usually well lit. If the street is not well lit and it is covered in ice then yes a teenager should not be driving on it.

I live in suburban Minneapolis. We go weeks with ice covered neighborhood streets, and they are lit only at intersections. Teens learn to drive safely in this environment.

Teens have a higher fatality rate than almost every other driving cohort except 80+ and winter driving conditions are more dangerous than non winter conditions. Teens do not drive safely compared to other age groups in this environment or any other environment.

Fatality rate is more or less irreverent. Pretty much nobody is dying from snow caused mishaps.

Teens die a lot because of gross errors in judgement, drunkenly flying off a cliff on their way to prom with eight people in the car, that kind of stuff. Those kinds of errors mostly tangential to snow and lighting.

By "outside city limits" I believe OP was being general, not specifically talking about large cities.

I live in a rural area. I can think of exactly four street lights that are within a 10-mile radius of my home, and I'm not that far outside town. So yeah, it's pretty dark at night.

Yes, roads around here are mostly cleared of snow and ice, but they're still dirt/gravel roads and the snow is usually pushed off to the shoulders where a bicycle would be riding, and even then, I'm sure you can understand that dirt absorbs water and will then refreeze. It's not a particularly safe place to be riding a bike.

> Have you ever taken a 30 minute bike ride over ice-and-snow-covered roads, in -20C temperatures, in the dark, on roads with no street lights or sidewalks (the sun sets at 2:00pm)?

This is exactly the circular problem that everyone in Sweden always points at: the roads are too dangerous and poorly developed for people to cycle on safely - therefore the answer is... more cars driving unsafely on the roads, making them too dangerous for cyclists.

It's a car-culture here. Nothing will ever happen to change that.

Incidentally, anyone romanticizing this as some sort of grassroots, badass rebellious movement should bear in mind that around big cities like Stockholm, parents buy their teenage kids Porsches to be converted to EPA-traktors.[0]

[0] https://www.dn.se/sthlm/han-kor-porsche-i-30-kilometer-i-tim...

let me guess: you live somewhere where winter is 10C with occasional rain? nordic winters are brutal - riding a bike in winter is suicidal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

Riding a bike in Finland seems to work just fine, given decent infrastructure. (Where "given decent infrastructure" is a constraint for practically any vehicle).

This video is from the fifth largest city in Finland, so that hardly counts as a rural area with long distances

This is what the roads looks like in the rural areas during winter https://www.google.com/search?q=maantie+talvella&source=lnms...

I have cycled 12km everyday to school when I was young, but it was on flat roads. In winter it was sometimes -5 to -15 and around those temps, sometimes I would fetch a ride, because I agree, in winter it can be harsh, but other then that, it was biking every day.

Rain is even worse than snow by the way. Wind is also killing. But if it was a snowy day with not much wind, cycling is actually fun.

Seeing the comments here I am happy for the swedes that Americans with their safety obsession are not allowed to vote in Sweden.

It's possible in Sweden because these "aren't cars, they're tractors". They're required to be modified so they can't go faster than 30 km/h [~18 mph] (or is it 50 km/h [30 mph] nowadays, I can't remember).

It's a remnant of wartime legislation, when farmers had a genuine need to be able to use modified old cars for field work, because real tractors weren't available. In return for the lighter taxation on farm equipment, they were glad to accept the requirement; probably had to gear them down anyway, to be able to pull a plow etc.

So they're legally registered as tractors, not cars. The moniker "EPAtraktor" has nothing to do with the US Environmental Protection Agency; it's an originally derogatory reference to Enhets(P)ris(A)ktiebolaget, a long-defunct low-price retail chain. So, ~ "Dollar Store tractor". (Or "Alepatraktori"?)

> Countryside can be really sparse, with current amount of people a kid's nearest friend might live 5 km away.

What do kids who aren't old enough for homebuilt pickups do to visit such friends?

The crazy solution we had in the more southern part of Europe - we used bikes. Crazy, I know.

I think the "more southern" part of Europe applies here. It's probably about "not being covered in snow for most of the year" which helps cyclists. Yeah, you can use bicycles on snow, but it's not pleasant. Most people hide their bicycles for winter and I'm south from Sweden.

Hmm, I've seen plenty of biking infrastructure un Umea and Lulea (including heated bridges that are used in winter), not to mention people using them even in colder times. It seems not all your countrymen agree with your thinking about winter biking.

Of course not everyone agrees. I see someone on bicycle almost every day, but those are either very dedicated cyclists or those who have no other means to move faster than walking but still need to.

Heated bridges? I've never seen one and roads are not even fully desnowed in my town.

Biking, online, and school meetups.

My dad and friends used to do 50 mile round trips on bikes back in the day. I hung out and talked to people online. It was also normal to do things like go home with a friend after school to hang out and have a parent pick you up when they got out of work, or hang out at practices after school. So it's doable but it requires a lot more logistics on the part of the adults, which is why everybody's happy when the kids can drive.

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