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The issue here is really cost to public. Non vaccinated has high chance to get severe complication when infected. They will utilize hospitals and healthcare whether public or private. For private, we can choose to ignore as the price will adjust by themselves to determine who lives and who dies. Nobody will bat an eye if a high-end boutique clinic let a poor Covid patient dies because bed and ventilator is too expensive. However it is expected hospitals must admit these patients and cure/care them whether they can pay or not. For public healthcare, this will turn into ethics and politics issue because government "killed" them by refusing "universal human rights" healthcare to them.

The easier way to solve this outcome is basically mandating vaccines which will reduce the loads on healthcare and hence general public cost. The correct thing to do on the other hand is to force all non vaccinated to sign away universal healthcare for Covid. They will bear the full cost and can be turn away from hospitals to die if hospitals have little beds, prioritized over vaccinated and if they too poor to pay full unsubsidized cost. No western countries leader will dare to implement the "correct way" even if non vaccinated wants to. And to top it all, many non vaccinated understood this is the correct way but still want government to cover their just-in-case severe complication hospital bills for free or extremely heavily subsidized bills. Basically a lot of non vaccinated wants to eat the cake and still have the cake. This is the actual situation now. And no media wants to discuss about it publicly. MSM probably have no appetite to discuss intelligently these days anyway.

Sure, as long as people who eat excessively, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, etc. also sign away their healthcare. Why should we enable their bad decisions?

Those things don't infect others.

The argument being addressed is that unvaccinated COVID pacients are not different from some of the other pacients. You're changing the argument for which there is a different reply

There is a reson why in germany and other european contires have sugar limit's in sodas an other foods. To try to mitigate the bad decisions.

There is no limit how much sugar you are allowed to add to your own food.

We are in the worst timeline. At first I didn't had too much anger again the people willing to take part in the phase III trial, they were mostly just a SNS annoyance with their virtue signaling. Their choice, my choice. Now they're writing literal hateful messages all over the internet about people like me who made an informed choice but moreover fully supports authoritarian measures that are taken just to fuck with people. A government role is supposedly to help people, not to ruin their lives. Not to mention the huge toll on social relations and mental health of the population. It's since a long time since the covid question is not a health issue anymore, it's an excuse. The most infuriating things is how dumb the arguments of those people are, because if their vaccine were working they would be protected anyway and won't have to fear anything (also remember when 70% vaccinated was supposed to grant herd immunity? This have been memoryholed hard as well). It makes no fucking sense to push it to people under 30 who have like a chance over 300,000 to die from covid.

You mention ‘informed’, but are you aware of the delta variant and that scientists sometimes learn new things?

> "We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned."

Can you explicitly mention what those treatments are? I'm genuinely curious.

There are various antiviral drugs which are orders of magnitude more expensive, have mediocre efficacy and a worse side effect profile compared to any of the main vaccines, and must be started within days of initial infection to work properly.

They are a great addition (besides vaccines and non-pharmaceutical public health measures) for treating high-risk patients for whom the vaccines don’t provide perfect protection (e.g. the very elderly and immune compromised), but a poor primary response.

We have excellent outcomes with monoclonal antibody-based drugs (the expensive route). Monoclonal is interesting because we may be able to take it preemptively. We have excellent results with steroids, vitamins, weight loss and exercise (low cost).

One way to search (and ignore random people like myself) for this, is to look for different countries treatment protocols (they are often published into other languages). There is a lot of serious people working hard trying to find good solutions.

Here are the latest COVID-19 treatment guidelines. They are very effective in preventing deaths when applied early and aggressively. Unfortunately many patients wait too long before seeking care, and many physicians still don't follow the protocol.

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/about-the-gui...

The anti-covid pill from Pfizer looks impressive:

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news...

I thought I remember reading something early on about protease inhibitors and COVID, cool to see that is coming out now.

> We have viable treatments that work and could be prescribed en masse. Not discussed, not mentioned.

Because the real problem are going to be people that will be far too sick for any treatment to help them avoid hospitalisation. And overloaded hospitals will not benefit a lot from the fact there is some treatment available.

The system will benefit much more from people not requiring hospitalisation in the first place, and currently that can only be achieved by having a large percentage of population vaccinated.

'... that can only be achieved by having a large percentage of population vaccinated.'

Only?? The mortality profile is grossly _weighted_ by lifestyle choices such as low cardiovascular health, type 2 diabetes, and obesity.

I am in decent health, got quite sick with the 'rona this year, and toughed it out at home. I later got blood test to confirm anti-bodies and a recovered letter from Dr.

These cohorts are the cash cows for pharma industry. Surprise surprise they'd rather sacrifice 99.9% of healthy population to save their major source of perpetual income. No hate against chronically ill, obese and diabetic, just pointing out the incentives here.

40% of Americans are obese, and 75% are overweight. Pretty far from "99.9% healthy population".

You have a good point, thank you for stating it clearly. My contention here is that instead of promoting treatment steps, and working towards helping each other we are tearing each other apart and the discussion is oriented completely wrong. Punishing people, fines?

I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated. However the monoclonal antibody treatments are given on an outpatient basis and are highly effective at preventing hospitalization.

Not an option for many americans that can't afford insurance. vaccines are free and more effective.

Bullshit. The Federal government pays for monoclonal antibody treatments, the same way they pay for vaccines. Uninsured patients aren't turned away. In high risk patients Sotrovimab has about the same effectiveness as vaccines in preventing hospitalization.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107934

I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated but you need to stop spreading misinformation about other treatments.

> vaccines are free

... No

yes.

They do help, but you need give it early enough.

Most unvaccinated patients do not seek help until they are clearly more sick than a normal flu. They wait until they have trouble breathing. And at that time it is already very likely they are going to be hospitalized anyway. They might react better with antibody treatment but they are still going to have to be admitted.

Whereas vaccine does not need to be given at exactly right time to be effective.

This is a bit hyperbolic. Wide scale COVID vaccination is needed for a functioning society.

It's clear that waves of death won't stop without it. Especially now with Omicron, the fourth wave. In the US, average life expectancy dropped more than 1.5 years in 2020-2021. More than any year since WWII.

Right now, COVID vaccine is more important than wearing clothes in public. And being naked in public checks more of your boxes for making you a non-person than nonvax restrictions. Being naked in public you go straight to jail.

So is forced wearing of clothes even more authoritarian than nonvax restrictions?

Well, no. Neither are authoritarian because they're both needed for a functioning society. Unvaccined are a literal danger to the public with how contagious and deadly COVID is.

If you don't want to wear clothes or be vaccinated that's fine. But expect to be pushed to the edges and marginalized for not following basic requirements for a functioning society.