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Comment by tapoxi | Hacker News Reader

Outside of requiring a newer PC I don't think Win11 is a trainwreck at all, I was auto-upgraded to it a few weeks ago and it's been fine. Auto HDR is neat for games and there's been a UI refresh, other than that it's basically Windows 10.

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> I was auto-upgraded to it a few weeks ago

The train wreck starts there. Who wants a system that auto upgrades itself without the user permission?

That, and most of the rest of the parent comment, made me believe the post was a joke.

Technically that's a flaw of Windows 10, maybe they fixed it in 11 :)

I want auto updates for security patches, please.

Good for you, there should be a checkbox so I don't have to suffer for your preferences.

There is, just turn off Windows Updates.

It isn't so straight forward if you aren't in the know on special tooling like O&O ShutUp 10 to accomplish it for you. Even then it'll get reset after updating and you'll have to fix it again. There is no "don't ever update unless I tell you to" checkbox, there is only the option to pause them for a limited time.

Windows is actively user hostile when it comes to updates.

Use Windows Pro and Group Policy Editor. There isn't a checkbox there but a radio box that allows you to configure update behaviour in detail. Never had an issue with it during all upgrades.

And if Windows Home users should be able to disable automatic updates is debatable.

I don't think it is debatable. Users should have control over their own computers.

I agree with parent, most non-technical people don't want to be system admin for their OS, so MS taking over is not really a bad deal. All my computers are IT managed and I have never had any update issues, so maybe there is some special sauce there via group policy. I have instructed them to section off my work PCs so they never update unless I tell them to, and it works. I get months and months of uptime till I take the reboot hit and do the updates.

The special sauce is probably WSUS, which allows them to control the update process for everyone and determine which updates they get and which they don't. Additionally, the WSUS channel for updates is behind Microsoft's normal updates, which allows for them to prevent problematic updates from reaching WSUS servers in the first place. Of course, home users get none of this.

I personally believe it is arrogance to say that non-technical users shouldn't be allowed to control their own PCs. And besides, a lot of users of PCs at home are technical. So I strenuously disagree with you.

Your arguing against something I didn't say. You can disagree with me, but you can't put words in my mouth. I didn't say or imply "shouldn't be allowed" or anything similar.

Since my comment was along the lines of "people should get a choice", if you did not intend to argue against that then one wonders what the point of your post was.

I mean, look at your language: "MS taking over is really not a big deal". How am I supposed to have interpreted that?

Security patches != system upgrade = broken of existing installations and reset any custom configurations

Ubuntu update notification allows the user to optionally see details of updates: https://www.addictivetips.com/app/uploads/2021/01/ubuntu-upd...

From there you can see what is being update and what the update does. You can even choose not to install one update or another or even not update a system component or another.

So, if you're afraid a new LO version may break compatibility with documents you work on but GNOME updates will improve usability, you can disable one specific update. Very simple and user friendly. For users who don't know, understand or don't care, they will simply click update.

Canonical is also planning to use snaps for some desktop or core components so they can have security updates automatically installed in the background. This is a somewhat polemic topic, but I understand their rationale: some people simply choose never to update because they have been burned by bad past experiences. Of course, the more advanced user can still disable it.

It did offer user permission, it was an icon in my taskbar that prompted for it. I didn't go out of my way to do it though.

This has certainly NOT been my experience. Windows 11 update is sitting in the download queue with it asking/trying to sell the update to me for a while.

"requiring a newer PC" is a bit of an understatement - Windows 11 is the first version that will actively refuse to run unless the hardware meets its "compatibility" requirements, and from what I heard, it's quite picky...

There are pretty easy to use workarounds -such as rufus, though that may change.

Older Windows versions required a particular amount of RAM to install, which was a check that could be disabled from the install media. That said, I do agree that Windows 11 is on a new level when it comes to this.

I used the rufus work-around to install it, and I'm nervous that it'll die after an update for that reason.

Aside from that, and a couple of UI annoyances (the placement of the start button and the re-arrangement of the start menu) I'm happy enough with Windows 11 that it will be a bummer for me if I have to go back.

For me it's little things like the way the context menu is cleaned up -but the old one is still available, and the file manager is similarly cleaned up. I also like that WSL is better than it was on Windows 10 (running gui apps are now an option without grafting a separate and half-assed X implementation ).

So yeah, I'd say "trainwreck" is a hyperbole -especially for anyone who had to use Windows 8!

Win11 is a wreck just because they effectively made it non-installable on 5 out of 6 PCs.

Prime majority of users don't upgrade BIOS, or don't even know what it is.

11 will be a short lived release just because of that, and them not only needing to backpedal, but to entice users into biting into a new bait, as all what is actually good in Win11 been kind of mentally displaced by the fiasco.

A supposedly sucks less Win11.1 will not do it to attract more users. A completely new release is coming.

While my laptop definitely got more unstable after being upgraded (might be better with a clean install), I could never put it on my actual gaming machine, because I play VR and right now it is a coin flip if VR just won't work for you at all.

> it's basically Windows 10.

It's crippled compared to Win10.

Every windows since 7 has been a train wreck by my standards. The amount of times I've had a system update just clear my windows profile is objectively abysmal and yet every HN thread someone will go and defend them.

No one cares about HDR. How about some decent data retention?

I get better frame rates in Linux running wine than I do in windows 10 since the 2020 updates.

Not saying that there aren’t issues, but the fact that billions of people use Windows and don’t routinely have their profiles wiped out with every update points to a specific issue with your setup; not a systemic Windows problem.

Oy vey. You're objectively incorrect. It's definitely a Microsoft issue. They use the old OS upgrade procedure to do quarterly updates now which means if it finds a Users directory it will rename it to Users.old and make a new one. However if it does two upgrades in a row in the background without telling you the old Users.old will be deleted from your disk.

Now all it would take them is a second to check the sizes of both and not remove the one with actual data but ya know that would be a actual useful feature.

And before you complain about to me about my "setup"... The scenario I described above is entirely common in IT departments the world over.

Now please stop blaming victims and start blaming the people that have the power to change things.

citation needed

I just upgraded to Windows 10 21H2 last week, after upgrading to 21H1 a couple weeks ago. I'm looking at my C:\ drive with hidden files viewable and there is no "Users.old" or "Windows.old" folders.

This is on Windows 10 Pro using my personal Microsoft account, but the PC is managed through Intune so I can access corporate resources.

What I'm saying is, to use your own words, "you're objectively incorrect."

Not every windows update generates them but it is still possible to hit two in a row that do when you update old installs of 10 from 2020 that have precached an incremental update. I'm not writing a research paper here. If you want citations you can put on your research hat and find them yourself.

I've never heard of this -- I've just tried googling and I can't find anything about automatically deleted, or even created, "Users.old" folder (I realise you might not have got the name exactly right).

Sometimes individual user directories get moved if they are corrupted, but they still aren't in my experience deleted.

For large proportions of people a misbehaving operating system is just "how computers work" and it would be like complaining that water is wet.

There’s a huge difference between “I need to reboot to fix some wonky thing” and “all my data gets deleted every time there’s a Windows update”. People would very much notice the latter as being a problem.

What the hell are you doing with your Windows profiles. I've admin'd many Windows machines and have a Windows install AND a VM windows install and have literally never had a problem with windows profile. Have you at least attempted to debug the issue, or can you point to a issue report you have filed?

This is someone who uses linux for 99.99% of all computing things, so its not like I'm a Windows shill

Run two upgrades in a row..see how it goes for you. I ran insider edition for years and that's a pretty common scenario when doing updates. And that's not even the legit bugs that have occured as well.

I've done this for dozens of computers. I have not seen this issue.

They might mean things like having all their file type associations wiped out because feature updates insist on doing that, rather than literally having their profile destroyed.

Then again, I've seen Windows do weirder things.

Both.

Provide issue links

Here you go:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/update...

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/window...

and numerous others.

Why does it happen? I have no idea, and probably Microsoft doesn't either. Nevertheless, it means the update process is broken. After such a case you may feel like you have the alternative of either running unsecure system or losing your data, so you may even consider the first option. Except you can't unless you pay for the Enterprise version.

Filing an issue report? Against Windows? Are you joking?

Feedback Hub exists and has been useful to me on several occasions.

Ok I'll give it a go in good faith the next time I have a problem.

Unfortunately true. Microsoft support these days, even the paid support, is a complete trainwreck. We had cause to open 2 separate tickets for two separate issues lately. One of them was clearly a bug, has a community forum issue about it with oodles of data provided, and nearly a month in to the ticket I'm still getting 'try this configuration' style bullshit from some low-level tech. I would expect that for free, but for paid support?

The other issue is being handled by the DBA but it sounds like he's getting a similar treatment.

In my previous job, I have seen windows support cases escalated to somebody who know how to do kernel debugging. I have no idea how much did that cost, but this level of support does exist.

I just accept that 10 is buggy at this point and have no desire for an even buggier/jankier 11.

Current bugs: - every MS app store app has the windows image preview program icon, despite following every guide I could find to fix this.

- sometimes WiFi just dies, and won't come back until I disable the card, full reboot, then enable it (Intel 6 chipset AFAIK, so not some noname brand)

- explorer randomly dies when switching virtual desktops and then comes back. I've had this one 3 machines now and I've no clue why.

>- explorer randomly dies when switching virtual desktops and then comes back. I've had this one 3 machines now and I've no clue why.

Were you using an Nvidia graphics card and did you right click on the left box of explorer where the quick access toolbar is? This is a common issue with Nvidias context menu in that situation.

Nvidia card....not sure about the rest, this has happened with the shortcuts at least.

it's a longstanding problem with the NVidia CPL Context Menu Extension.

People defend Windows because they don't have the same experience as you. I don't either. Windows is a rock solid OS that I use at work and it just works. For instance, the machine I'm typing this on has a 250 day uptime, my second W10 box next to it has a 460 day uptime. I use them every day to get stuff done. I work in biotech, not in s/w dev land, and my computer is IT managed (so maybe they're doing something special). I don't ever fiddle with the OS, registry or whatever and I usually can find a PortableApps option for stuff that I need to use.

My one guilty pleasure as a Linux user, was using my work laptop that was managed by the IT team. It was the only way I could ever use Windows 10 and describe the experience as "pleasant". I guess the almost complete lack of forced reboots/update installations and stupid junk on the default install contributed to the experience.

I still used a Start Menu replacer. That was one thing I wouldn't want to give up.

You use vastly fewer things than I do on my daily driver. I'm not complaining about stability. I still maintain windows boxes for work and yes I get uptimes measured in years. In fact I used to be a windows fanboy.

The issue is really that the front end experience has gone to shit and that windows boxes are inherently zero day hackable at random. With gaming there's memory leaks out the ass. When doing updates windows regularly ignores and resets settings. Not everyone wants to use defaults and not everyone has time to edit group policy settings every time there's a changes. Your IT team is definitely 100% debloating your system before imaging.

I'm over here coding, running vms, setting up ssh tunnels, streaming, recording video, playing music, doing teleconferencing and all manner of other nonsense. So yes my standards are a little out there.

But frankly I don't think windows should be able to be HIPAA certified because I don't believe it's possible to secure it. And trust me that's my job.

The workers at my job that use Chromebooks are by far the most secure in our entire IT stack.

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