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Comment by gjsman-1000 | Hacker News Reader

Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necessary for any school system. I wouldn’t want my kid to write “A kid’s version of Algebra” and then have it used in schools. I wouldn’t want a flat-earther to have his Science book in schools. Who wants Trump’s guide to Civics? That’s super different than “banning books” like it’s 1940s Germany or something.

EDIT: Some are saying that this would also apply to the school library. This, in my view, doesn’t negate the schools need to discriminate between content in the least. I would not want a flat earther science book in the curriculum or in the library.

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No, they are literally calling for banning books from school libraries. Books that are not used as part of the curriculum.

https://www.alternet.org/2021/11/henry-mcmaster/

They are also literally calling for burning books:

> Two board members, Courtland representative Rabih Abuismail and Livingston representative Kirk Twigg, said they would like to see the removed books burned.

> “I think we should throw those books in a fire,” Abuismail said, and Twigg said he wants to “see the books before we burn them so we can identify within our community that we are eradicating this bad stuff.”

https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/education/spotsylvania...

Burning "porn"? Literally (heh), that's what the Nazis did.

Yikes.

> Nobody’s calling for banning books. They are calling for not using certain books in curriculum, which is very different and not allowing certain books is necessary for any school system.

From the other day on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/11/1054798508/when-schools-ban-b...

> Texas Gov. Greg Abbott joined Krause's efforts this week, sending his own letter to the Texas Education Agency asking it and other agencies "to immediately develop statewide standards to prevent the presence of pornography and other obscene content in Texas public schools, including in school libraries."

> While the censorship of some books in schools is nothing new, a growing number of challenges are against books about race. In her reporting on the topic, KERA reporter Miranda Suarez spoke to Deborah Caldwell-Stone who leads the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. Caldwell-Stones said, "We went from a situation where the majority of books being challenged and removed in schools and libraries dealt with LGBTQ themes, to a situation where there's a real mix."

The referenced letter is https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-directs-tea-...

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So yes, this is a book ban and its not just material in the curriculum but also content in the libraries.

Well then, again, would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library?

Schools exercising discretion is not 1940s Germany book bans and the two are not comparable.

A book from the Flat Earth Society's reading list would be worth having around.[1] Kids should have an opportunity to see the stupid ideas of the past. It yields perspective.

The problem is not reading enough books. Kids who only read a few take them too seriously. After you've read everything from Abbie Hoffman's Steal This Book to Johnathan Edward's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", you get some perspective.

But with so much online content available, it's hard to get anyone to read in bulk today.

[1] https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/flat-earth-li...

Why not? Sure flat earth science would be horrible for science curriculum but the book in the library is fine. What if a student wanted to do a report on flat earthers? Should they have no access to reference material?

I kind of do, that sounds like a fascinating read. Also a good way to learn that something being printed in a book doesn’t make it authoritative.

>Well then, again, would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library?

I'd be fine with that so long as it's in the fiction section.

I would be surprised if the librarian had the flat-earther science manual already in the library.

But if it was already in the library, I would not want to ban it from the library as a remedy. That's insanity.

So, no, I don't want the book in the school library, but I sure as shit don't want to ban it from the school library either.

> would you want a flat-earther science manual in the school library

Classified correctly and with sufficient material so that this doesn't look like a gift shop at Arc Encounter, yes.

Under the DDS, that would be 525.1 ( https://www.librarything.com/mds/525.1 )

Under the LCC that is QB275-343 ( https://www.librarything.com/lcc/QB275-343 )

Note that this is right next to books such as "ANTIGRAVITY PROPULSION: Human or Alien Technologies?" that has a review of:

> This book includes never before mentioned accounts of popular UFO topics like Area 51, Roswell and alien abduction claims. Also subjects such as Nazi and Japanese antigravity experiments and rare theories involving quantum physics and lost civilizations of the ancients.

> The book is well written and researched. I found the photos and (photos) of articles intriguing, compelling, shocking and last, thought provoking. I was never one to believe in aliens, UFO's or anything of that nature.

> But after reading this, I am open minded and am beginning to wonder how much has been kept secret from society. It now has crossed my mind that there very well is truth in this theory, and the possibility of a government cover up seems more probable than improbable.

> I highly recommend ANTIGRAVITY PROPULSION: Human or Alien Technologies? to those who are curious about the unexplained (Aliens, UFO's, cover-ups)and science. A definite 5 star read! I feel should be on everyone's TBR list.

I am completely ok with a book on UFOs, flat earth, or a technical manual for drones disguised as birds being find in a library as long as the library is able to remain impartial on its collection.

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How can we expect to teach children skills in critical thinking if only a particular group's orthodoxy is available?

If the answer to that is "we aren't expecting to teach critical thinking" then I would contend that this is what is setting school systems to fail - not poor teachers or overpaid administrators.

If someone is to utter "both sides are to blame" then it is important that students learning about this and seeking context of both sides have the material available to them in a manner that is allowed to present both sides without judgement - such as a library.

But, they are, in some instances, calling for the removal of some of these books from school libraries. I would qualify that as "book burning" (dramatically, metaphorically); its similar to the argument that school lunches have to be healthy, because in unfortunately-to-many cases it may be the only meal that student gets today.

Additionally, as you point out of the gulf between this and 1940s Germany, I will point out the gulf between "flat earther science" and "books on critical race theory, LGBTQ studies, and The Hunger Games". That's a strawman. Curriculum time is a limited resource, absolutely, so some concessions have to be made; we should be skeptical when those concessions are politically, religiously, or ideologically motivated, rather than academically, scientifically, artistically, or societally. Even with a title like the Hunger Games (or Harry Potter, which lest anyone forget was also very contentious with the Religious Right upon its release, due to concerns about kids studying witchcraft); sure, its not exactly Gödel, Escher, Bach; but its still reading! Do you know how rare reading is, especially among our children who have spent their entire lives connected to the internet, having instant access to the latest dopamine-inducing content on Tik Tok? Any book which can capture their interest, and maybe open a door to a more critical and insightful fifth, sixth, and seventh book, should be in consideration.

You are aware that >40% of this country views flat-earth, LGBTQ studies, and CRT at the same level of regard? If they didn't, why the school board battles going on all over the place? As far as they are concerned, there is no gulf between them.

... and that is why the The Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine ( https://www.amazon.com/Gale-Encyclopedia-Medicine-Set/dp/141... ) is on the list of books being removed ( https://static.texastribune.org/media/files/94fee7ff93eff960... )

I'd say out of that list flat earthers have better scientific rigor (too much emphasis on direct sensory experience), just wrong conclusions...

The article says it’s about books being available to kids in libraries, not curriculum per se.

Sorry, no, that's utterly wrong. "Used in curriculum" means that they would be used in the teaching of subjects in class. There are school districts and entire state school systems that are starting to ban books on the topics of sexual orientation and critical race theory from being in the school library at all.

I guess it depends a little on who is making the choices. If it is politician driven, might be fair to call it banning. If it is the school system and teachers making a choice about what to use to teach effectively that seems like good policy.

I think you have that backwards. Parents and the community should have the final say when deciding what is included in a curriculum, not (potentially activist) teachers and school boards.

> Parents and the community should have the final say ...not (potentially activist) teachers and school boards.

Aren't school boards usually elected by the community?

Also, generally, a lot of public school teaching is about encouraging a newer generation to think for themselves, and potentially be exposed to ideas that are not constrained by the parents and the community.

Parents who want to micromanage what ideas their kid is exposed to should consider homeschooling.

Let's get real for a second and be honest about the very real problem we are discussing:

Political activist teachers are pushing their agendas onto students. This has been quietly happening for some time, but has become harder for the teachers to hide as children started completing more instruction and schoolwork in the home.

These are not isolated incidents and the examples of this happening are everywhere in the US. In fact, many teachers have been caught openly bragging about trying to create "radicalized" students. This is precisely why we've seen a grassroots push by parents against teachers and admin.

I haven’t seen this or heard this. Could you link a few isolated examples of these “not isolated incidents” of teachers “radicalizing” students?

That only works to a point. If a community decided "math is stupid, our schools shouldn't be teaching it", they should quite rightly be overridden. Instead of treating it like a power grab, perhaps the process for determining curriculum should be more open and transparent?

If a community decided that math is stupid and our schools shouldn't be teaching it, they may actually have a point. Who defines "math"? Is it all the way to Calculus 2 because the math teachers got excited and thought everyone needs to get that far? Is it politics disguised as math?

I'd trust the community in that case. And if it backfires, they get to live with the consequences. Not everything needs to be idiot-proof. Our country might do much better if we just let bad ideas fail hard.

It wouldn't be so bad if "bad ideas fail[ing] hard" didn't have the potential to quite literally ruin the lives of the youths who come up in these environments.

If they're public schools, the funding is governmental (state-based in the US), and thus there could be an argument made that it is still "banning". In private schools, not so much (but then again, pretty sure private schools can already control their curriculum and the books available to students from the library).

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