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Comment by amelim | Hacker News Reader

The last thing the PC gaming community needs right now is another insanely expensive piece of hardware with a gimmick attached. I really cannot see this going anywhere within the community. I'm guessing that those who largely play the PC games that would require such high specs aren't likely to want to play them outside of their homes. Besides you can purchase a comparably spec'd desktop system for a quarter of the price.

Heck, the most popular PC game at the moment (World of Warcraft) can be played on relatively cheap laptops already.

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I would definitely consider buying one. Why do people think that high priced, high design PC's can't sell when Apple has been selling exactly this with great success? The PC crowd has been lulled into cheap hardware but not everyone wants that. I typically buy high end Sony Vaio's just because of the sheer elegance of the product. I have raved on here about my Vaio Z, portable "workstation" power in 3 pounds of 13" goodness. I think there is a market for this.

People think that because the high-end PC gear can't compete right now on price, design, longevity, toughness, etc.

For instance, this laptop can't manage to hit the MacBook Pro price point, and it's in a plastic case, as opposed to a single-piece slab of aluminum. Which do you think will hold up better? Who would you rather deal with for warranty repairs and replacement? Which company is more likely to still be alive at the end of the machine's life?

this laptop can't manage to hit the MacBook Pro price point

If you configure a 17'' MacBook Pro to have similar specs as this, the MacBook Pro costs a little more.

The 17" MBP has a quad-core processor, a 60% larger battery, an optical drive, a vertical resolution of 1200 instead of 1080, a 500GB 7200RPM drive instead of 320GB for the Razer, and still weighs 5% less than the Razer.

On the other hand, the Razer will offer a much better GPU and will be $150 cheaper than the high-end MPB 17".

It's hard to compare machines built for such different specs, but I'd say the $150 premium on the MBP is more than justified.

GPU becomes a lot more important if you are going to be using the laptop for gaming.

Ultimately they serve two different needs and therefore two different markets. For one person the Macbook is a no-brainer, but for someone else, the Razer laptop is a better choice.

I understand that. It's obvious, and it's also not the point. The point is that Razer made so many sacrifices to specialize this laptop that they ought to be able to undercut the MacBook Pro by a lot more than $150.

The use of a dual-core CPU instead of a quad-core CPU should cover most of the cost of the GPU upgrade, which means that either Razer's trying to make a lot more profit per machine than Apple's flagship laptop, or Razer's getting screwed on the cost of a bunch of commodity components.

There are other costs involved besides commodity components. Developing and producing a new input method costs more than the cost of the components.

Someone could use an external GPU on the MBP via Thunderbolt (the Razer could too if it has an express card slot).

Possibly, but it's not really relevant.

Relevant to what argument? To what use case? What is a gaming PC? What is a gaming laptop? What are the use cases for each?

I would liken the gaming PC to an audiophile hi-fi setup, almost no one expects it to fit in a messenger bag and run off a battery. For the connoisseur, no portable setup will fulfill all of their needs, and in all likelihood, they'll have setups to cater to each use case. But what if you can have a machine that's ultra-portable, but could also be docked to a setup that allows for high frame rate/high res gameplay? Some people already do this on laptops with express card bridges to external PCI-E sockets. Works pretty well. Here's an example of one such build, although I've seen better:

http://www.techradar.com/news/computing-components/graphics-...

I agree that they are too different to directly compare.

For me, the real $150 premium that makes the MacBook Pro justified is the fact that it runs OS X. For hardcore gamers, that's not really a plus. Also, the optical drive is a "meh" at best.

I have to add a comment that personally I dislike Apple's aluminum slab design. I have friends with MacBooks who's legs are red from the heat transfer after it's been on their (insert irony here...) lap. Also I have never had a problem with a well designed "plastic" cased laptop standing up. The Thinkpad is generally considered one of the the toughest laptops around and it's in a plastic case.

The Thinkpad (I only own couple of very old old ones) has a semi-plastic case, but has quite a few special features to ruggedise it:

(Quoting from https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/ThinkPad#Leno...)

The following are some of the changes that have been made to the ThinkPad line:

    Added Magnesium-alloy chassis roll cage to reduce motherboard flex caused by holding the laptop one handed on a corner.

    Added Magnesium-alloy lid roll cage for a sturdier lid while replacing the lid material from magnesium-alloy to plastic for better wireless signal reception.[12]

    Added Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic to 15 in (380 mm) ThinkPad Models.*

I'm a fan of the aluminum body. My Macbook Pro is 4 years old and it's a tank. You're right though, it does get pretty hot, but most high-end laptops do. I burned the graphics card out of my old plastic Fujitsu many years ago playing video games. Heat's just the price you pay to have the current fastest hardware.
I use a laptop cooler on my desk and lapdesk on the couch.

Apple sells "notebooks", not "laptops".
Edit: ooh - feel the downvotes! Go to apple.com and count the number of mentions of 'notebooks' vs. the number of mentions of 'laptops'. The only place you really see the word 'laptop' is in quotes in the customer success stories.

Yeah, weasel words are wonderful things.

It's an aluminum unibody according to this: http://www.pcworld.com/article/238897/razer_blade_eyeson_wit...
Not plastic.

> Which do you think will hold up better?
Hold better against what? Parachute drops? I have a laptop with a plastic case and I take on trips and use it at home, never had anything happen to it when I was thinking "man, I wish this thing was built out of a single-piece slab of aluminum to hold up better"
> Who would you rather deal with for warranty repairs and replacement?
A company that is passionate about their customers...?
> Which company is more likely to still be alive at the end of the machine's life?
What does that matter. I'll just review whatever else is new and suitable for me and buy that (It could be a different company).

The Razer Blade will use an aluminum case, and by the looks of it, it will be a unibody design that is very similar to the MacBook Pro.

> and it's in a plastic case, as opposed to a single-piece slab of aluminum.
My Lenovo T400 has taken a lot of abuse, and it's still kicking.
> Who would you rather deal with for warranty repairs and replacement?
In the PC world, each manufacturer contracts this sort of thing out. Apple does it in-house, sure, but that's not how it works outside that ecosystem. I've had no problems dealing with the Lenovo warranty people, and it's fairly likely that it would be the exact same people.
> Which company is more likely to still be alive at the end of the machine's life?
I don't need them to be alive at the end of the machine's life. I just need them to live through (or insure) the manufacturer warranty; then, I can just get any repairs directly or do them myself.
I would be very surprised if this laptop manages to bankrupt Razer within the term of the warranty, even if they did bet the company on this thing.

thats why I buy lenovo now.

You can't play PC games on a MacBook...

Hmm, are you aware you can install Windows on a MacBook ? see BootCamp..

I have a few friends who did this. They were barely able to get WoW to run at the lowest settings on their MacBooks.
Able to and want to are definitely different when gaming on MacBooks.

> I have a few friends who did this. They were barely able to get WoW to run at the lowest settings on their MacBooks.
Were they just doing that as a test? Because there's a Mac version of WoW...

MacBook Pros have substantially better GPUs than straight MacBooks.

I still use a Macbook Pro from 2007 that I play games on via Bootcamp. It's only recently starting to show it's age when I play new games.

The funny thing is that by optimizing the supply chain and manufacturing process, Apple has managed to significantly cut costs (or keep them high for competitors). For example, the Vaio Z is much more expensive than the latest MBA.

While it is true that the Vaio Z is priced higher than the Air, the Vaio Z also has a faster processor (2.3ghz vs 1.7ghz), and can be configured to have up to a 2.7ghz i7, 512gb SSD, 8gb of ram, and a full 1920x1080 display (the Air maxes out at 1.8ghz, 256gb SSD, 4gb of ram and a 1440x900 screen). That alone would be worth it for many users looking for a machine that is closer to a desktop replacement in a small, lightweight form factor.
Oh yeah, it also includes a CD/DVD drive and a decent GPU (although it is external only).

because very few "hardcore gamers" (who this is aimed at) are the same who can afford to drop $3k on a laptop just for gaming. I spent around $4,000 on my desktop set up, but that's something I use for everything.

Why couldn't it be your primary box?

Hmmm. Strongly disagree with this.
As a hacker rather than a gamer, the concept of a programmable set of LCD keys next to the standard keyboard is extremely interesting for native app development. I hope that particular feature is copied into a subsequent Macbook Pro release.
It's really bringing the innovations pioneered by the iPhone (programmable UI rather than built-in keyboard) back to the laptop.
Among other things, you could have custom glowing save/search/email keys within Word to increase the accessibility for the average joe. They might not be able to find control-F, but they can see the key in their top 10 list.
For Mail.app, Keynote, etc. you'd have different sets of keys (show presentation, download attachments, etc.)
It could get even more interesting if different keys are available in different modes within the same app, like tooltips to the nth degree. For example, each new emacs mode could light up 10 hotkeys for useful functions associated with the mode (compile, jump to, view in browser, and so on).
tl;dr: programmable LCD keys are a very interesting way to combine the best of iPhone-style programmable UI and keyboard-style haptic feedback.

Agreed - can't wait to use this in a technical context, and write some custom apps for that touch pad. I do hope there is an option to skip the neon-green accents though, and throw in a SSD.
When my MBP hits the two-year-old mark, I would really like to replace it with something along these lines and finally get back to running Linux natively on some respectable hardware.
One more thing, I really liked the magnesium alloy case on my Actius MM10 - wish I could have that on a full-size machine. Maybe we'll get there if this thing sees some sales.

I wanted to do the same thing, but boy is it hard to ignore all the little details that OSX gets perfectly. Back to old MBP.

"As a hacker rather than a gamer, the concept of a programmable set of LCD keys next to the standard keyboard is extremely interesting for native app development."
If you are a developer and you want programmable keys, don't sit around waiting for an expensive keyboard, reprogram the ones you've already got in front of you. As far as I know, all major OSes can already arbitrarily remap keys to any keystroke you like, and it's easy to pick up software to turn any keystroke into any action you like.
Are you really using PrintScreen, or SysRq, or ALT-PrintScreen, or any of the other combinations you've got unmapped and waiting to serve you?

I would be surprised if his current keyboard had LCD keys.

I am and was aware of that. You don't need LED keys is my point. Just take control of what you already have. You can do it right now.
People have this huge blind spot around their keyboards for some reason. Every keyboard is "programmable" nowadays. The symbols on the keycaps are only suggestions. Don't pine, do.
(And before anybody brings up the usual objection that your customizations travel to other people's machines poorly, bear in mind that today we're discussing a custom hardware keyboard. Software keyboard configurations travel better than that.)

> And before anybody brings up the usual objection that your customizations travel to other people's machines poorly...
I'd say that's unimportant compared to other people traveling to your machine's configuration poorly, when the displayed UI does not reflect the actual result. Imagine, if you will, someone sitting down at a keyboard configured as anything not QWERTY, but still labeled in QWERTY. They're going to ask how to fix it. In contrast, an accurately labeled keyboard will at least allow them to hunt-n-peck.
Even Apple's customizations of the trackpad travel poorly to other users. A familiar scene: a user taps it several times, then has to ask the owner how to click.
Even accurate UI needs careful design. The standard bad example is Microsoft's menus that automatically "simplified" themselves by hiding infrequently used items, making life more complex for everyone.

It turns out in practice not to be a huge problem.
As you might guess, I'm speaking from experience. I don't need to "imagine" or theorize, I'm living it.
It also turns out that if you really want to, it's easy to make your keyboard flip back and forth between QWERTY and whatever customizations you like. (In my environment, "setxkbmap us" and "jerf_keyboard" (setxkbmap dvorak & an xmodmap) does it. Bind a key to it if you like. I used to use xosd to pop up which mode just turned on when I was sharing a computer with my wife.)
I reiterate, people have a huge blind spot here and are so busy hypothesizing about how it might not work that they miss out on the fact that it does work, and there's no need to wait for fancy keyboards... that, by the way, your coworkers will still be intimidated by, so it's not as if your argument actually affects anything in any direction anyhow. Reap the benefits of these keyboards now, if you like.

Your experience isn't universal. I have people using my computer sometimes that I have to change the keyboard back to QWERTY for them, because they can't find the keyboard icon to do it themselves, even when they have directions. It really is a pain, in my experience.

Of course you and I configure tons of hotkeys, but we're hackers here and can't expect normal people to do that!
What I found interesting is the potential of LCD keys to make program features more discoverable for first time users and more accessible to the masses.

It seems to me that that role is pretty well served by icons in the regular UI that the user's already looking at.

But those need to be clicked with the mouse. Having a top 10 list of extremely common hotkeys in an app is just a lot more discoverable (for the non-expert or first-time user) and much faster (for all users) than finding the right icon to click.

But also comes with a cost and complexity including users having to sometimes look onscreen for functions and sometimes on the keyboard.

You don't remember all the cardboard keyboard overlays that used to ship with software?

Apple's done this with great success in their re-use of the f-keys as system control buttons (as have other manufacturers.) I'm not sure most Mac users are even aware those are f-keys any more.

The market will decide for itself what it needs or wants.
I'm glad they have the courage to try this. Outside of Apple, most computer companies stopped innovating a long time ago. They're happy to fight over scraps in a commodity market. HP finally got sick of it and are betting their business on a major shift in strategy.
When it comes down to it, you get what you pay for. With computer taking over more-and-more tasks in our lives, it's worth it to spend a little more on a system that better suits your needs.
But who am I to argue with someone that thinks any advancement in HCI over the ancient keyboard-and-mouse is a "gimmick"?

Man, geeks are a tough crowd. I for one applaud their effort to shake things up. You say there's no market for this, well they say they're building it for themselves. I think chances are good there are lots of people out there just like them.

Agreed! Expensive? Sure it is. But I applaud Razor for trying something daring. Given how slim it is, those specs are pretty outrageous.

I don't see anything about a CD drive. Perhaps that's how they were able to make it so slim.

Apple's getting rid of the optical drive too. I bought my laptop 2 years ago, and I don't think I've ever used my BluRay drive.

Which is a shame, because that's where I put my second HDD.

Surely a CD/DVD dirive would have to be present for gaming. I know Steam is taking off but a lot of games are still played from discs

I don't think "taking off" is the best way to describe Steam's current position. I don't think there's been any major game in the last few years that required a disc for playing. Perhaps a couple required it for installing, but not many there either.

The point I was trying to make was that many people still choose to buy the physical disc from a high-street or online retailer. Just because the disc isn't strictly necessary, doesn't mean they're going away. A friend works at GameStop, and every now and again has to work for midnight launches for the likes of World of Warcraft where people will be queued around the corner to get their copy of the game.

Right, I can agree with you on that. Your example is very fitting though since at least for the WoW expansions, probably every single one of those queuing already had the game preloaded and just needed a product key to upgrade their account, furthering the notion that the drive itself is not necessary.

It's essentially the same price as the Mac Book Pro 17". Those things are like a plague at coffee shops and conferences all over the world. If the hardware is good, I think they have a good chance. I love the fact that the input pad is on the right. When using laptops where it's in front of the keyboard, I'm always accidentally pressing and moving the mouse.

Oh neat, I initially thought it still had a normal trackpad centered under the keyboard but that is just a small bevel for opening the laptop.
Having the trackpad on the right makes a lot of sense, hopefully we start seeing more laptops that do this.

I always turn off tap-to-click for just that reason.

PC gamers who want such high specs might want to play them outside of their homes, when they go to LAN parties. This is fairly common amongst some gamers, and a portable powerhouse has some attractions for that use.

Your missing a huge market - couch gaming.
I have my laptop _on my lap_ working/playing games etc on the couch instead of watching TV.
It's difficult to play many games in this situation.

I find the biggest impediment to gaming in this situation is that it's hard to use a mouse on the couch.
Solution: a $5 polypropylene cutting board, still in its shrink wrap, wrapped in patterned contact paper. It's rigid enough to sit on a couch cushion or (wide) chair arm and provides a nice big mousing surface.

My gaming machine is a laptop, for example. Until my netbook, it was my everything machine, but it was still my gaming machine. My tower serves underused as a server much more than a used computer. I _love_ laptops for their mobility and versitility.

It remains to be seen whether the UI is a "gimmick" or not. We'll have to wait for games that use it.

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

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