Hacker News Reader

Comment by coldtea | Hacker News Reader

I've never feared being out in Singapore, even at 4am at night, in any part of the city.

I also never feared police or the state for that matter in Singapore, if I didn't do anything illegal.

I cannot say the same for the USA, where there are "no go" areas in all major cities (and many smaller ones), crime stats are way higher, and an encounter with a cop can turn sour way more easily.

Not to mention I had an accident (in Singapore) and my friend called the ambulance there, and had to spend the night on a hospital, where they did several tests, and the cost was like $100 for first rate care in ultra-modern facilities.

View on HN

>I've never feared being out in Singapore, even at 4am at night, in any part of the city.

>I also never feared police or the state for that matter in Singapore, if I didn't do anything illegal.

Japan, Korea and Taiwan achieve the same level of safety while not being dictatorships. No need to compare it to the US.

Taiwan was autocratic until merely a generation ago (and holds the questionable achievement for the longest sustained period of martial law by any government), in South Korea half of its democratic elected heads of state are in prison, and Japan has been governed virtually by the same party since the post-war era.

They have the rule of law, they have elections, all of those countries are characterized by, in reality, a very monocultural, depolitized, bureaucratic system of government. Live in Singapore in reality is no more or less 'democratic' than live in Japan or Taiwan or SK.

> Live in Singapore in reality is no more or less 'democratic' than live in Japan or Taiwan or SK.

You absolutely will not be arrested for holding up signs outside government buildings[1], or questioned by the police for reading a book on the train as a protest[2]. You would not be sued to bankruptcy for making what would be considered political speech in these other countries. Or just about anything on this list https://twitter.com/kixes/status/1174024357443600384?s=21.

Singapore is absolutely less democratic - there's no need for scare quotes.

[1]: https://twitter.com/kixes/status/1353999081287245824?s=19

[2]: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/police-question-one-ma...

> Live in Singapore in reality is no more or less 'democratic' than live in Japan or Taiwan or SK.

I think this is a false equivalence. TFA mentions a democracy activist who was imprisoned for 21 days because of a small, non violent protest on a subway. He had been previously arrested for criticizing the judiciary in Singapore.

Unless I'm mistaken, you would not be arrested for either of these acts in South Korea or Japan. They are both imperfect, but in some important ways more free.

activist arrests happen in South Korea as well. The country has a national security law that gives the government rights to take action against anything perceived as 'anti-government' action. Advocacy of communism or voicing recognition of the North is illegal and every so often lands people in jail

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30808950

>I think this is a false equivalence. TFA mentions a democracy activist who was imprisoned for 21 days because of a small, non violent protest on a subway

Things like that, and worse, have happened time and again in the US too...

> half of its democratically-elected heads of state are in prison

Are they the Illinois of SE Asia? For that matter, if the US laws on insider trading applied to congresspeople, half of our elected representatives would rightfully be behind bars, too.

On the other hand, Taiwan and Korea were dictatorships or semi-dictatorships after the war, and for a long time (until the 80s or so). Even today elections there are charade-ish...

Taiwan elections are charade-ish? Can you back that up with anything?

You mean aside from 70+ years of a dictatorship, mass corruption on both sides, the KMT lording over for most of the country's existence, and having this ex-dictatorship force still being the major political player (with huge amassed wealth to boot), or having local goverment issues being drawn in the pro/anti China partsian noise?

You're ignoring the successful elections since they've become a democracy. Stop living 30+ years in the past.

95% of the USA is the same. There's no danger at 4 am most places, and you don't have to be worried unless you are breaking the law.

I don't think the US is a good comparison.

The amount of "mindbending messed up"/"distropian" stuff the US has from a European point of view is absurd.

> a European point of view

Well, the slogan «‘No Way To Prevent This’, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens» is from The Onion («America's Finest News Source»)...

>from a European point of view

99% of Europeans haven't been to America and only know what Hollywood movies tell them. The kind of person who thinks you can visit New York City and the Grand Canyon in the same day and have to worry about mass shooters everywhere all the time.

Most Europeans know the US better, and have a better grasp of its politics and even which states is which, than the majority of Americans who can't even name their own Vice President.

And this is not some pop culture instilled notion, but my empirical observations on the ground. Heck, I've talked with too many people who didn't even know the major cities in their own state, 100 miles away from their town, or major parts of its own history, and might as well never even left their county...

Your observations? From what US states? and what European states?

that sounds like a less-educated-american point of view of how common citizens of Europe look like, rather than reality...

yes, the argument is also strange given that Hollywood tends to not show many of the bad sides of the US, and if so presents them as exceptions. So if your opinion is based on Hollywood the US looks pretty okay...

A fairer comparison would be the failure of San Francisco and success of Singapore. I think comparing a city essentially that is Singapore to a giant landmass of 330M people that is USA - is sort of meaningless IMO.

San Francisco has many more creatives per capita than Singapore... you can see the effects of a police state without freedom of speech in film and literature (or even a comparison with Hong Kong until very recently).

San Francisco has some very obvious problems, but there's no way I'd rather be in Singapore as someone who has worked at social media startups, crypto, and dabbling in biotech/longevity... the early opportunities aren't there because the imagination and freedom to pursue it isn't there.

It's a systems problem because allowing serious dissent and dissatisfaction can inspire innovation.

> San Francisco has many more creatives per capita than Singapore

This is out of scope.

The comparison is about city management. Not creativity.

When you talk about creativity, SF is at the forfront a giant nation of 300M people, 2 orders of magnitude larger population and market size. That naturally support more creativity and innovation.

As for how much the market contribute to your claimed advantage, it's hard to measure. It might be that indeed SF per capita creativity, excluding market impact, is better than SG. I have no reason to doubt that, but I see not proof.

Not mentioning other aspects when you are a central cit in a superpower.

> When you talk about creativity, SF is at the forfront a giant nation of 300M people, 2 orders of magnitude larger population and market size. That naturally support more creativity and innovation.

If we're talking about the Bay Area tech startup founders then roughly half of those are born outside of the US. Singapore could have just as easily attracted those immigrants, but they went to SF instead.

You are repeating my point. More creative people move to SF because there offer better chance of success, which is fundamentally determined by the market size (and capital etc). That's not because SF is managed better. Swap SF mayor and SG primer minister, you still have the same SF and SG (very likely, let's not be mirred in hypothetical assumption).

> I've never feared being out in Singapore, even at 4am at night, in any part of the city.

Same for me in Barcelona. Getting pickpocketed is the worst that can happen.

> I also never feared police or the state for that matter in Singapore, if I didn't do anything illegal.

Well that's the thing, there's a lot of stuff illegal in Singapore :)

The safety aspect is true.

In terms of the police, if you are detained you have no right to remain silent and no right to counsel (until after you’ve been interrogated).

And the healthcare system is top notch and affordable, but the governments attitude is “citizens need skin the game”. Private insurance is almost a requirement otherwise the public system will leave you with thousands in out of pocket costs.

It is a remarkable country but scratch under the surface and there is a lot that doesn’t work well too.

> I've never feared being out in Singapore, even at 4am at night, in any part of the city.

You might have never been in fear, but were you ever stoked? And I mean genuinely socially stoked, not the monetary excitement after winning at the casino.

Violence is a big predictor of strong sentiments among the populace.

If you don't risk taking punches and kicks, you'll hardly get the reward of hugs and kisses.

Social volatilty gives socially competent people a good opportunity to capitalize on their competence. Nowhere is this ever more clear than places like Brazil, Nigeria, South Africa, Mexico...

A socially competent person will make friends and romantic relationships as soon as they get off the plane.

A socially incompetent person will get robbed and risk mugging, again as soon as they get off the plane.

The so called dangerous places are also the fun places.

This strikes me as a very naive sort of romanticism, as someone who grew up in alternately a very safe and very dangerous locale.

What? If you are a socially competent person (say a rapper with > 500k followers) you can go in the most dangerous areas of Lagos and people will maybe beat and shot each other....but to host you for the night...I know this for a fact!

Of course if you are loaded but socially incompetent (say many of the billionaires in Silicon Valley or Wall Street) then your 50B net worth won't be enough for people to restrain themselves from beating you unconscious and taking you Rolex or Phatek Philippe (that your socially incompetent brain decided to sport there even though you are nobody but a walking wallet with no street cred)

You have the most intriguing, Kanye-esque definition of social competence.

Sorry to see you getting downvoted, its an interesting perspective.

That said, even rappers seem to retire to "safer" places then these "lively" options you describe. So something about being safe appeals to many people, not just the socially incompetents'.

But rappers do frequent the most socially volatile areas, albeit in the US.

The US is huge and there are pockets of instability of course, especially in big metro areas such as LA, Chicago , Baltimore and Detroit.

For a socially competent person who lacks the prequalifer of fame though ,they are not that great again due to prices which are US-like

But for example Young Dolph, went back to get some cookies in a tougher area, blown away and killed. Not so good. It's not clear that being socially competent / successful helped him.

So when are you booking your ticket to New Orleans? coldtea and I are waiting. I'll meet you at the airport arrivals.

You've convinced me, I'm booking a plane to some hell-hole to 'capitalize on my competence' and achieve big-feelings...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com