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Comment by ghaff | Hacker News Reader

It's fairly far down the article but it would seem as if the need for a passport given that, according to the article, most people in the EU don't have passports would be a pretty big stumbling block.

I also imagine that the more border crossing is involved (and, yes, travel between EU countries is "crossing borders" but in a sense less so than traveling to non-EU countries), the more hesitant people are likely to be all other things being equal. I probably still wouldn't travel from the US to Europe at the moment.

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There is also an emotional aspect to this. As someone born in Eastern Europe I feel that Brexit has been specifically targeted at our ethnic group. I have no intention of ever visiting there again, red tape or no red tape. I just don't feel welcome there and I feel offended.

There are a significant number (probably a slight majority by now) of British people who are as saddened by this as you are. And not just the predictable econmoic fallout.

I very much enjoyed the multiculturalism and there are plenty like me. The period from around 2005 onwards was for me a great time. European housemates, colleagues and cultural influence. It felt good to be part of something that crossed cultural boundaries. We've lost a lot.

I think sometimes the unwelcoming voices are the loudest and are what sticks with us. We'll miss having people like you.

Understandable for you to feel offended by the situation though.

I know there are plenty of people like you and I've met a lot of them during the time I spent there. But I had no idea that there were that many who felt the exact opposite.

The emotions are still raw. I have good friends and a couple of amazing mentors who I left behind. What a total, utter mess this is...

I feel like britain has this kind of weird mix between a really racist and xenophobic press / ruling elite, and an actually pretty open population. I'm english and I feel totally alienated by the way in which UK culture has changed in recent years, so I can absolutely see why somebody from the rest of europe would feel alienated, but I think under that media verneer, there's the country I grew up in, which is pretty multicultural to its core.

The unwelcoming voices are not merely "the loudest", they are the most populous ones.

I assume you are part of an economically privileged group, but to someone who has just lost his job to a pole, the coolness of "european cultural influence" does not mean shit.

Are those people thriving now? Genuine question although I have a hunch as to the answer.

Never in history did it turn out to be true when poor people's problems were blamed on some minority. In every instance I can think of the results were disastrous for the minority as well as the poor who were pitted against them.

It's still too early to tell. There have been and there will be some (expected) problems, but we will only know in years or decades.

>we will only know in years or decades.

Rees-Mogg (an avid supporter of Brexit) famously said it would take 50 years to see any benefit from Brexit.

Almost nobody lost their jobs to East EU migrants. Unemployment was at an historic low.

In fact, the areas of the UK with the highest number of immigrants voted Remain (and just in case, EU immigrants were not allowed to vote in national plebiscites).

That's true, and @vadfa is just being ignorant here saying "has just lost his job to a pole". There were what less than 4 millions(now probably less than 3 mil, and migration wasn't one way only) immigrants from EU in UK in a country o 66+ million people, and most of the britons were never happy to take the jobs which were taken by EU people, they were always better on benefits. They even have TV shows(Channel 5 I think) where they are happily showing people on benefits and how good they're living and how they won't ever work again. And yes, those are britons, not EU migrants.

PS: those xenophobic/racist groups are very very active now after Brexit. They've always had that hatred, it's just now very visible. I'm driving a European car(left side wheel) with UK plates since 2007 (it's a good German car), and it doesn't feel like minority, road rage, looks, shouting etc when they see the left side wheel[after Brexit] is just amazing. Just few days ago woman was shouting in a car park: "I've passed my driving licence here [pointing finger to the ground, repeating multiple times]" with the comments that I shouldn't be driving in her country. Last year I've bought dash cam which I haven't felt was ever needed before and started reporting those hate crimes one by one with the video evidence. And police, fortunately react very swift and seriously to those.

PPS: Europeans shouldn't feel that bad and think that everything is targeted towards them, UK has a huge national racism problem anyways, even for those whose parents are brits, who were born and lived here their whole life. Most recent big example was EURO 2020 finals (football) and the racist comments in twitter / press / public the players received who missed the penalties. And it's not a single incident, it's just a more public example of part of multiple happening every day in peoples lives.

PPPS: there are many brits who voted to leave EU, but doesn't have any hatred towards EU migrants, they have just voted against European Union as an institution and wanted UK to not be part of it. The votes were not targeted only to migrants by some people, but the majority yes. I can't find that ad anymore anywhere (maybe someone has a link?), where ITV, Channel X and others were showing NHS before Brexit: full of migrants from EU in their sport suits and British elderly who doesn't have where to sit and need to wait long lines, because of EU migrants, and then life after Brexit, where NHS is just empty, welcoming every briton, no need to wait and elderly are happy. Those who wondering: nothing have changed in NHS, the situation is even worse now, because UK is short on nurses in NHS, who were largely EU workers.

>As someone born in Eastern Europe I feel that Brexit has been specifically targeted at our ethnic group. [...] and I feel offended.

Meh, what you heard were mostly just the voices of a loud and stupid minority, not he norm in the UK. I don't see any reason to feel offended by that vote result, it's nothing personal.

As an Eastern European myself, I found the UK to be the least discrimating and most fair towards immigrants than the other rich European nations when it came to glass ceilings for foreigners in their society.

Eastern Europeans, and foreigners in general for that matter, hold many top positions in companies in the UK, whereas this is much less accepted in traditional German, Austrian, Swiss, French, etc. companies for example, who are far more elitist and openly discriminatory sometimes [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih5k7g8vUmE

Sorry to point out that it seems to be a loud and stupid majority, as their side won the referendum 52% to 48%.

(western European here)

So just because 52% voted leave, you assume all of those who did, did it because they had something against Eastern European immigrants?

That's preposterous.

The funny and insanely ironic thing is, I know many Eastern European and other immigrants in the UK who became British citizens and also voted to leave just to thin out the competition they faced for jobs and real estate.

They had nothing against any nationality, but their narrow minded views and primitive survival instincts kicked in knowing there are many like them out there wanting to immigrate just as they did before and made them pull the ladder after them since they assumed that less immigration will give them more leverage in the future.

The irony is not lost on me, but people are rarely rational when voting and mostly do it on emotions.

Most EE immigrants did not get British citizenship because there was no need for them to bother. I call BS on this anecdote of yours. I personally know dozens caught in the Brexit mess and of those who were able to vote in the referendum not one voted leave.

>Most EE immigrants did not get British citizenship because there was no need for them to bother.

"Need" in what way? Sure they didn't need it to live and work there, but traveling with a British Passport gives you way more liberties abroad and less discrimination than some EE ones (I lost count on how often police, public and private institutions in Western Europe would treat me like shit when I showed my EE ID vs my friends with Western nationalities).

And since getting a British Passport is basically a ruber stamp once you satisfy all conditions (which are very simple to meet) and it doesn't force you to renounce your existing nationality like some other countries do, most got it as their second passport.

I think a lot of people underestimate the value of having a powerful passport and what a difference that can make on your experience as a foreigner abroad (and inland as well).

> just the voices of a loud and stupid minority

More like 52% isn't it? Granted not every one who voted leave did it to keep out the Poles. But it makes you wonder how many did and which smiles at the grocery store are forced...

> More like 52% isn't it?

You're correct it was 52% - however that does not represent 52% of all the public - it represents 52% of the public who turned up to vote. Obviously that still carries the majority verdict for the referendum.

There were 45.5 million people registered to vote in the referendum in 2016 and 28% of those registered voters didn't bother to turn up to vote. The leave vote equalled 17.4m voters. The remain voters equalled 16.1m voters. 13 million people didn't care enough to vote.

>But it makes you wonder how many did and which smiles at the grocery store are forced

Do you seriously expect you deserve genuine smiles from all service employees? And that if some don't do it it must be because of your nationality?

Did it occur to you that maybe some don't smile because they work shit dead end jobs, for shit pay, dealing with shit people as customers every single day for months/years on end?

All smiles at the grocery store are forced

That was a figure of speech of course. Make it the office or the bus or the pub. Same thing.

Sadly you are right that there was a small minority vocally opposed to migration from Eastern Europe. But take heart that many many people (the majority currently, 53% in the latest poll) do not support Brexit and want to rejoin the EU. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-rejoin...)

Also, passports for a family of four don't come cheap. Around ~50-70e per person, in addition to taking significant time. For the same money, they can get two more nights at a holiday resort

> most people in the EU don't have passports

Do you have a reference for this? It might be true, but I live in a small European country and have never met or heard of anyone not having a passport, so it sounds very unlikely to me, though of cause we are a small percentage of the total, but is it really the case?

I think statistically, size of a country is inversely proportional to the percentage of people who hold a passport. This makes sense to me because the smaller (geographically) a country is, the more likely the citizens are to go "elsewhere".

In France you have to pay for a passport, not for an id card. Passport is really not a common thing to have when you don't travel outside of EU.

Most of my familly and friends i France do not have a passport.

Anecdotally, I live in Germany and don't have a passport. Lots of people I know do not currently have a valid one either (but may have had one in the past).

https://www.visitbritain.org/sites/default/files/vb-corporat...

Slide 53, Passport ownership.

These numbers are for people that already travelled internationally, before Brexit, so the total number might be much higher.

But the available data shows between 56% and 80% have a passport. We certainly can't conclude "most people in the EU don't have passports" from that data set.

I didn't say this was a source supporting the above claim, sorry if I wasn't clear.

I was just _a_ source of passport ownership in the EU that I know of.

From the article:

> "That's enormously important," says Tom Jenkins, who says that around three quarters of Europeans don't have passports, since they can travel around Europe with their ID cards.

Don't know how true this is though.

>most people in the EU don't have passports

Really? This is kind of surprizing. Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU.

I'm not European and I don't know but I assume CNN wouldn't get this sort of basic fact wrong. Here's what the article says:

----------

Since October 1, EU citizens can no longer travel to the UK on their ID cards; instead, they must use passports.

"That's enormously important," says Tom Jenkins, who says that around three quarters of Europeans don't have passports, since they can travel around Europe with their ID cards.

"For a family of four, the logistical and cost implications of traveling to the UK become really prohibitive. It affects school trips too -- if some kids don't have European passports, before they'd have used ID cards, but now they'd need a visa. It means schools will either have to exclude kids on grounds of ethnicity -- or they won't bother coming to the UK and we'll see a genuine drop in visitors."

> It affects school trips too -- if some kids don't have European passports, before they'd have used ID cards, but now they'd need a visa.

This is even more complicated than it appears because of jus sanguine and immigration.

If you're born in France, you're not an automatic French citizen unless you're born to a French national. You get the nationality of your parent(s), which might make UK-entry complicated. Only once you're 13 and have lived in France can you apply for French citizenship[1], and even that can take 1-4 years [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_...

[2] https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Obtaining-French...

Why would they have to exclude based on ethnicity now but not before? Even when UK was part of EU, kids who were not EU nationals still needed visa to go to UK.

They're talking about the fact that due to a lack of passports among certain people (probably immigrants) it would become de-facto ethnicity based.

Not just lack of passports, but France has tons of children born in France that aren't French citizens. For them, entering on a French ID card made life really easy.

Getting and having a Malian or Algerian passport and then a visa for UK entry sets a high bar for entry.

> Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU.

No. Your ID card is enough. You don't need a passport to do something like board a flight within the Schengen zone.

The only valid ID that I have is my passport though.

He means an EU id card. If you don't have an EU id card then you're not an EU resident and it doesn't apply to you anyway.

Edit: except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland it seems.

Further edit: OK, so id cards are not compulsory in all EU countries, so I withdraw my comment.

UK didn’t really have ID cards while in the EU. They were introduced at one point, but never caught on. I never met anyone having one.

A funny side effect, similar to the US I believe, is that you need a driving license to buy booze.

>you need a driving license to buy booze

There may be some variation by state but you typically need a government-issued photo ID (Added: If they check, most places don't if you're obviously old enough.). Which often means a driver's license but can mean a state ID that you get instead of a driver's license. In theory you can probably use a passport/Global entry card/etc. But the more unusual ID you try to present, the greater the chance some store clerk won't accept it.

I'm most definitely an EU resident/citizen (Finnish/citizen of Finland to be precise) and I do not have an EU ID card. I only have my passport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card

It's not compulsory to have one in Finland.

Most (or all?) EU citizen have state issued IDs that are basically mandatory for every single citizen. UK doesn’t have a mandatory ID.

Only 16-17 EU member states have national mandatory ID card laws, in some it’s either a passport or a national ID card. I would bet on more people having a passport in the EU than an EU national ID card or those numbers being fairly close.

I know your ID card is enough, but it's still more convenient with a passport, IMO.

How’s that? Assuming you don’t leave the EU those are _exactly_ equivalent

Technically, yes. But AFAIK, the eGates at e.g. Heathrow didn't work with a German ID card so you had to queue for a human.

Those gates only work with biometric documents and not all passes are biometric...

Dunno, maybe I'm an old-timer. For me international travel=passport.

How? The EU identity card fits in a wallet, and is cheaper to replace if lost. It's waterproof.

You can store your boarding pass in your passport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That’s on your phone now

It doesn't change anyhing, what's more convenient?

Why? You can use your ID card which every state has as far as I know (apart from the UK!)

Here in Denmark we don’t, so most people have a passport.

Not at all, ID is enough. You don't need it when travelling in Shenghen area. I made my passport to travel to USA and Mexico, havent used since.

> Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU

You don't need any ID to travel but it is recommend to have an ID. The ID can be a passport or National ID. It doesn't have to be a passport.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-c...

Yes. A lot of people in EU don’t have passports because they don’t travel outside of EU. An ID is sufficient.

> but it would seem as if the need for a passport given that,

That and the test procedure craziness, which, granted, was relaxed about a month or so go. Afaik you had to get a test before you entered the plane and another one once you got into the UK, no matter if you were vaccinated, that was costing money (in many cases more than the plane ticket itself) plus it was adding extra stress.

Yes, testing requirements generally are another barrier. For example, even as a fully vaccinated US citizen I would be required to get tested before leaving whatever country I was in to return home.

And who knows what rule changes or quarantine requirements I might run into? It's less of a big deal for business travel but things could get expensive in both time and money if it's vacation.

Just something I won't deal with right now barring urgent need.

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