Comment by mgkimsal | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mgkimsal | Hacker News Reader

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I'd taken to calling myself a 'digital garbageman' for a time, because that's essentially what I was. I had some corp jobs, and it was mostly cleaning up other peoples' code. I said it tongue-in-cheek, but I did feel that way, and eventually left corporate work to hang out my own shingle. This time around, I'm primarily solo, and sub out work to people to augment my time/skills.

I've gotten much better about charging rates I'm comfortable with, and finding clients that a) can afford it and b) find value in what I do at those rates. It would actually be nicer to do 'value-based' pricing, vs hourly, but it's not something that both parties are usually able to agree on. Unless you know a particular industry well, it may be hard to understand the full value of the work you do. Even then, the company may much prefer to pay hourly or much lower rates, simply because they can probably find someone else to do it.

With medical and legal professions, the licensing/regulation creates a large barrier to entry, and people have to go to those professionals for certain tasks. You can represent yourself in court, for example, but it's often frowned on, but you generally can't prescribe yourself your own medication. With software, no licensing/regulation exists, so there's generally a much broader range of skills and value in the marketplace, which dilutes the value perception many people have.

Agreed on the age thing. As long as there's a youth-obsessed focus in the software world (and I think it's done just as much by us inside than by the outside world) it'll be hard to get the respect we'd like as a profession, simply because most people don't treat it as a career. Would you rather use a 22 year old lawyer, or a 52 year old lawyer? How about a 22 year old developer vs a 52 year old developer? :)

"With medical and legal professions, the licensing/regulation creates a large barrier to entry"

This is the heart of the differences in pay. Expensive certifications keep the supply of doctors and lawyers artificially low and thus their average salaries higher. Meanwhile, anyone with a computer can start programming software.

Certainly the 52-year-old developer all else being equal. Isn't this a complete no-brainer?

well, as a rule, so far, the 52-year-old developers don't get the jobs over the 22 year olds. That'll hopefully change as more of us get older though :)

My one other thought - way too late to the game here - is that many/most developers seem to choose their 'respect' in the form of free sodas, air hockey tables, nerf gun fights, flex time and other similarly frivolous/trivial 'perks'. It's not how I would choose to be respected, but it seems that's what enough developers seem to gravitate towards that it's set the perception of developers in the marketplace.

This is now how software developers are courted - "hey, this place has free sodas! and you can play ping pong!" Nothing wrong with those, but I'd rather take more cash. I a talked to a company about a position, and postponed, then came to them about 9 months later, and was offered $30k less than what we'd talked about before. I inquired about this rather massive discrepancy, and was told "we have free gym memberships, and all the free soda you can drink!". Tell you what... I'll buy my own sodas, drink fewer of them, not need the gym as much, and buy my own gym membership closer to my home with the extra $30k, thank you very much.

I'd also rather be able to come in, have people respect what I say, take my ideas seriously, and not have to deal with a load of internal politics on a daily basis. That tends to be the life of a contractor/consultant, and it suits me better.

Indeed. I'm a 41-year-old developer and have spent most of my career working in university research departments. Just a grown-up amongst grown-ups. I had an interview the other day with a start-up whose HR department and developer-interviewers insisted on talking about the "free lunches" they provide. I mean, when it came to question time for me they actually asked whether I wanted to know anything else about the lunches. By then they must have realised I couldn't give a shit. I was and still am just bemused by how this could possible attract anyone, of any age. I mean, do I look like an idiot? I'll make my own sandwiches and take the money instead please.

Exactly.

"TANSTAAFL" :)

Now, I'm not against free lunches. In a large enough group, I think it's a nice thing to offer - you get a variety of stuff you might not otherwise cook for yourself, communal eating is fun sometimes (not all the time), etc. But... as a stated 'benefit' that you know is being offered in lieu of extra cash... not sure that sways me.

Yes, free lunches are fine, and communal eating thing much of the week would work well for me and no doubt for the team's performance. If I was told we each together a few times a week, that would be hugely important. As it was, I tend to imagine individuals scurrying to the kitchen, and taking a boxed meal from the fridge back to their desk while they're still working. I should have asked which of these actually happened.

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