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Comment by codegeek | Hacker News Reader

"The model was grounded worldwide but has returned to service this year, with airlines including Ryanair taking deliveries of the aircraft."

Umm, remind me not to fly Ryanair. Even if it is safe now, it just is scary to even think that I am in the air on a model that has crashed twice within months killing 100s of people each time. Does anyone know which other airlines are flying this model ?

Also, "It paves the way for families of all victims of the crash, from 35 countries, to seek compensation in the US under Illinois law, in return for not seeking punitive damages against Boeing, limiting the potential financial liability for the manufacturer."

Of course. That's the fine print. Not seeking punitive damages. In other words "we will pay you cheap so you can shut up"

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> Even if it is safe now, it just is scary to even think that I am in the air on a model that has crashed twice within months killing 100s of people each time. Does anyone know which other airlines are flying this model ?

There's a simple way to make it so you don't have to worry about this.

There's a documentary TV series that is available in much of the world. It's called Mayday in Canada where it is produced, but the name gets changed in some other regions and on some channels to Air Crash Investigations, Air Disasters, or Air Emergency.

Find it and binge watch all 200+ episodes over the course of a month or two.

When you are done you will either be fine with the 737 Max 8 or you will have given up altogether on flying on a commercial passenger service. Either way, problem solved!

Meh, I've watched most of the episodes and civilian aviation has advanced a lot. It actually reassures me. But then Boeing shat the bed with terrible things you'd expect of Soviet-era design by forced impossible objectives like the Tu-144 instead of a modern airliner. It's pretty much a Boeing and US ( the FAA shat the bed as well) problem.

Why would it make me feel better?

I mean, I've watched almost every episode of that show but if there are known or covered up design flaws, I'm still scared.

Tui is one. I recently flew with them and had the "surprise" of discovering I was seated on 737 Max. I kept thinking: "Surely they debugged this now!"

They can't debug the airframe change (moved the new big fans forward). That should have triggered a new type certification. Instead we got a software coverup which the regulators OK'd so the airlines would not have to pay for pilot training on a new aircraft type.

"Is anyone here a doctor.. Im sorry, force of habit.. Is anyone here a software engineer..Whatever you do, do not close your laptop at take-off.."

I can't even imagine the feeling.

> Does anyone know which other airlines are flying this model

I had planned on making a small website to show that info ( which airlines, routes have the 737 Max), but the main data providers ( Flightradar, Skyscanner) i thought of refused me access to that data. If anyone has another provider they can think of, don't hesitate to respond.

ADSB Exchange provides a list of all aircraft registrations they track. It's in the 100k's I think and would certainly include all commercial bulk passenger aircraft.

Maybe by cross-referencing with one of the many sites tracking ownership, and the scheduling data FlightAware or others would provide, it could be figured out.

https://adsbexchange.com

Absolutely terrifying.

The worst bit isn't even that it crashed - these things are complicated and they can can go wrong, and the setup of the aviation industry is supposed to (and historically did) result in a full blameless post mortem which identified root cause issues and made sure the same thing could never happen again.

That very clearly hasn't happened here, the system is broken, and I'd have difficulty trusting any new Boeing plane at this point

If you look up the DC-10's history, you'll see a grimmer picture than the 737 Max, as the DC-10 had several physical flaws that were covered up, some of which could lead to disabling of the control surfaces.

The Max has definitely been bad, especially for the modern era, but unfortunately, lack of training on the system at fault is also a significant factor in the crashes. Had pilots known more about the system, the crashes could have been prevented.

There's speculation that the acquisition of McDonnel Douglas brought in some bad company culture that lead to the Max issues.

I think most airlines tell you the name of the plane which will be used in the flight upon booking time? At least that's been my experience so far...

Maybe after this revelation, airlines should be forced to keep their promise and give customers the plane they ordered?

Airlines don't want to have to commit to always using the same model of plane. It's pretty common they downsize the plane if not many tickets have sold or upsize if they're selling well. They also do swaps in case of mechanical failure or large delays.

It's the reason they won't let you get a seat reservation till near the flight date (since different planes might have differing seat layouts)

Taking away this flexibility could easily wipe out their entire margins.

> It's the reason they won't let you get a seat reservation till near the flight date (since different planes might have differing seat layouts)

I feel like I have been able to pick seats on all of my flights for the past 10+ years no matter how early I purchase the flight. There is always some language that the airline is not obligated to give you that seat.

Ryanair is special in many ways… one being they run a very standardised fleet, almost entirely 737-800s with 737-MAX on order.

They do, but from what I understand, they're not obliged to use the same aircraft (e.g. last minute swapping due to maintenance or other reasons).

The "funny" thing though is that they renamed it to 737-8

That was already its name. Boeing 737 Max was the programme, with the 373-7, -8 and -9 models, like before 737 NG with -300 and -400 models. It's just that now they're heavily emphasising only on the -7,-8,-9 and skip the "Max" part.

Are/where all the -7, -8, -9's affected by this problem or only specific models?

Yes, I believe all 737 MAX have MCAS.

To be fair, I wouldn't fly Ryanair even if they paid me. They have the absolute worst experience of any airline I've flown with. There's no reason to fly Ryanair unless you enjoy being treated like cattle, love filthy planes, like the thrill of the stampede to get a seat and the hordes of drunk people. There's something about Ryanair that brings out the worst in people.

It's only fitting they're gonna be buying these planes.

To be fair to Ryanair, their experience has improved. No more stampede - 'a seat will be allocated to you (free of charge)'. Less strident attempts to sell you scratch tickets. Staff seem to have been told it's acceptable to smile at customers. I have never been a fan, but my last few trips with them have been fine. I'd say there's a lot of people who like you flew with them during their worst days, and will never give them another go. You only get one chance to make a first impression.

There's no reason to fly Ryanair

I agree with everything you say, however as someone who lives in a smaller secondary city, Ryanair is often the only airline offering direct flights to many destinations. So unfortunately in many cases the choice is a €50 90 minute direct flight with Ryanair or a €250 3-5 hour trip with 1 or 2 changes.

I actually don't mind it too much. Their ops are usually good and direct flights are convienient.

I also like their honesty. You get what you pay for.

Lufthansa on the other hand removed everything (free checked luggage, free drinks, free food) and said that passengers would be much happier to personalise their flight experience by buying everything separately.

> There's no reason to fly Ryanair

They're cheap and they go to some destinations where there are no other flights.

To be fair, when you fly to tiny regional airports 100 miles away from the city you're supposedly flying to, it's not hard to advertise destinations that larger airlines don't serve ... (only slightly joking).

They are not cheap at peak times, particularly if you dare bringing luggage with you, but they are definitely among the best if you want to reach smaller airports.

> There's no reason to fly Ryanair

Plenty of people disagree with you and I'm one of them. If the upside is paying 10 euros for covering 1500 km I can handle the cattle-like experience for 2 hours.

Nobody is flying with Ryanair because they enjoy it so much, sometimes they are the only choice or way for some people to afford the trip.

They're still preferable to taking two flights.

My work used to take me to smaller cities in Eastern Europe. Ryanair was often the only direct flight.

I don't think the planes are dirty. The lack of seat pocket and the plasticy seats must make it easier to clean.

That's not a coincidence though. They're responsible for closures of a good number of competing flights from destinations that are not big enough to sustain multiple large carriers at different price/quality levels. Thus everybody gets stuck with Ryanair-level service, even if you'd be willing to pay more for more humane treatment.

Luckily, a number of regional players have started to adopt to this in recent years by replacing fleets with smaller planes to offer more flexibility.

Is that why they don't have the seat pocket? I always wondered about that. I'm the type of person who travels with a bottle of water and a kindle and not having mesh is one of the most annoying parts of flying with them

"There's no reason to fly Ryanair unless you enjoy being treated like cattle, love filthy planes, like the thrill of the stampede to get a seat and the hordes of drunk people."

I mean there is also the whole 'order of magnitude cheaper than some competitors' thing they have going on. For a lot of people, it's worth being in a filthy plane treated like cattle for only an hour if it means they get to save £200.

There is certainly a reason why Ryanair carries more passengers every year than any other airline on earth.

Yeah, a lot of airlines have orders for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_...

Notable mentions in North America: Alaska, United, Air Canada, Southwest. Though I disagree with you, the data exists!

Nobody flys Ryanair unless they have to. That said, I have seen many places I never would have, if they hadn't existed.

'Nobody flys Ryanair unless they have to.'

... O’Leary almost choked. “Our booking engine is full of passengers who have sworn they will never fly with us again,”

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2017/sep/23/hate-ryan...

No, average people who see that the price is 40€ vs 200€ for a 2 hours long flight will fly Ryanair.

I do no tunderstand the "have to" and your comment about the places you went to - was Ryanair the only option to get there?

Well yeah, due to not having the time to take a train, and not having the money to fly with a nice airline.

Yes, so you meant "people who do not take a train (time/will/..) or want to go there cheaper"

Yes, people that have to. The existence of other constraints is implied, it would be reductive to take my original statement literally (IE people that are somehow forced to use RyanAir to go places).

If I have to fly within Europe I always opt for the cheap options, the time spent in air isn't long enough for me to bother sitting a little cramped. I'd say a lot of Europeans feel the same, so "nobody" might just as well be "most". Don't spread misinformation.

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