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jb1991

This isn’t surprising to me. I know lots of people who work for this company in the Netherlands, and I’ve heard a lot of inside stories about the questionable business practices that go on there. Starting at the very top, with the fraudulent marketing lies to sell you rooms because there’s only X number of rooms left, which is entirely bogus, and for which the courts have punished them, if I recall. They’re not interested in anything but profit above all else. It is unfortunate, that this is what the tech industry has evolved into.

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For some reason, the hotel business seems pretty shady. My sense from crawling the web is that it's one of the areas that have the most blackhat SEO as well. Straight up linkfarms.

This is sheer speculation, but I do think the hotel business is really convenient to get into if you have a questionable side-business and need to launder money. Who is to say if a room was occupied or not that night, if that foreigner who paid in cash really existed. Can pretty much just trickle money into the books. I imagine you could also run contraband out of them fairly easily. Lots of people coming and going with all sorts of luggage. Who is to say if they are as full when they leave as they were when they arrived? Great for prostitution too, trafficking. The girls can tidy up the rooms during the day.

The entire travel industry is shaddy. I used to work for a price comparison site for holidays that had a side business as a travel agent. It was well known that none of the prices listed were the real price. Even with a rather generous staff discount being applied the sales agent was one surprised that it was just x over the listed price. They would say you were buying a package holiday but in reality they were just doing bookings for you via the standard public website for everything but the hotel. They would take the hotel payment first and then look at the price for the flights by which point you're already sold what the company sells and you need to pay for the flights no matter what. They'll then suggest that you do the transfer booking yourself to save money but it'll literally be the same price.

When I joined the first meeting my first day had people talking about how they got up at 2am and then 4am to make sure internal processes were still working. They had people who were barred from the office and were massive screaming matches if they came in which was mostly management yelling at people for talking to them.

On the money laundering aspect, I doubt this since most gangsters are busy with other businesses such as running taxis and bus services that are mainly cash businesses while hotels are mainly internet and card payments and largerly coming from business accounts unless it's a tourist spot.

I think you have the makings of a new Netflix series there. I propose it be called Check In (or Cheque In for those of us in the UK).

There's a lot of potential here. I'm thinking a slow burning Breaking Bad set up that sells itself as a light hearted Fawlty Towers-type show about a wide eyed Monopoly enthusiast fulfilling his dream, but with every season it gets darker and grittier and ends as a tangled web of international crime and corruption. Everything spirals out of control. The hotel is hosting a big conference and the minister of whatever is holding a keynote speech and the hotel is full of press, meanwhile the johannesburg arms dealers killed a prostitute that turned out to be an undercover cop and the body is still in their room, also there's a call from some really angry russian loan sharks, they're coming for their fucking money right now.

This is almost exactly Ozark, if anyone likes the idea and wants to watch now.

I've kind of assumed that the posters were being ironic and describing Ozark, but maybe not.

Consider my subscription renewed.

You had me at slow burning Breaking Bad. I would watch the hell out of this.

I can't tell if you're joking -- but in the UK you "check in" to a hotel. A cheque is, specifically, a type of financial/banking note.

cf. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/check_in

In the US I believe a Check is the same as a Cheque in the UK. Granted cheque is a homophone but both usages denote money (more so with the US title) with the added benefit of the connotation of arriving at a hotel. I am a big fan of puns.

The paper item "a cheque" is called "a check" in the US -- which presumably happened because "a cheque" has something to do with the verb "to check" (as in, "to check the health of"; to verify the status of something by asking/seeing it").

When you check-in to a hotel you aren't "handing over a cheque", you are checking-in with the reception. Ie., you are speaking to reception and checking your reservation/room.

To "check in with someone" is to have a chat or talk to a person to "check" how they are.

Absolutely. "In the UK you can pay a bill with a cheque, and in the US you can settle a check with a bill"

As someone who speaks the queen's English, I would like to recommend you look up what a cheque is.

> This is sheer speculation, but I do think the hotel business is really convenient to get into if you have a questionable side-business and need to launder money.

Unless you're talking total dumps, which relies on cash business only (and does'nt have a turnover to make money laundering worthwhile) I think you're flat out wrong.

My guess is that reputable hotels take in very little cash (it's actually frowned upon and they will ask for a security deposit). The lion share will be credit card transactions and the rest will be invoices for corporate customers and large travel agents.

Not much scope for money laundering here.

Argentina president Cristina Kirchner is accused of having a hotel chain in Patagonia for money laundery purposes. Investigators say the hotel never received anyone despite the books saying is was full for years.

> For some reason, the hotel business seems pretty shady.

Any business where people in charge have no affinity with the end product automatically becomes shady. The only source of pride for these people is to rake in more money, so it's even difficult to blame them.

> Who is to say if a room was occupied or not that night, if that foreigner who paid in cash really existed.

That's why in some countries ID is required when checking-in. Makes it a bit harder to use for money laundering.

> The girls can tidy up the rooms during the day.

Hiring a real cleaning lady seems like a good price for not ending up with filthy rooms.

> Who is to say if a room was occupied or not that night, if that foreigner who paid in cash really existed.

Here in th EU, they usually have a look at your passport. I think it's enforced by law in some places. Government overreach

Is it? Surely this simply and proportionately deals with exactly the risks above?

Not only that. In places like Thailand it is a key part of anti human traffic and child sex abuse strategy. Because it is so common, staff in most hotels are trained to spot it.

It deals with those risks, and it's still a disproportionate overreach.

I don't understand your point. In "Breaking Bad" if he had a hotel instead of a car wash, he could claim it was 95% occupied every night. Thereby washing large quantities of cash. In the EU do they have to keep IDs for a certain amount of time or something? If so then you just keep a few on file and hand those over when asked.

It depends on countries, in Italy the data on the ID of guests (of a hotel or similar) is transmitted electronically (within 24 hours) to the Police.

This since a few years, 2013 I believe, until then you had to send (via snail mail) the "records" or bring them daily to the nearest Police (or Carabinieri) station.

The provision is since 1978, it was a Law approved in a short time due to the "emergency of fighting terrorism".

Thanks that makes so much more sense. That would be harder to work around. Maybe give out "free" rooms as promotions then on the books claim they paid 1K a night and another 1k in room service or something.

Spain does the same thing.

> It is unfortunate, that this is what the tech industry has evolved into.

My thoughts, exactly.

I started off in the 1980s, just as tech was starting to become mainstream.

In the early days, we were not the most "socially well-adjusted" crew, but were fairly enthusiastic about the tech, with most of us working for the love of the craft.

Then, the money started to pour in. It was inevitable.

That brought the sharks and the rapacious bastards.

They became heroes and role models.

And here we are...

I know someone who works in the music industry and recently got a new boss, coming over from Booking.com - and guess what since that guy started, the new priority on the agenda is to introduce dark patterns in the company's online offerings...seems like Booking.com is a real hotbed for that.

Wasn't alive for 1980s and it's a controversial take here on HNs but some of the most excitement I've seen has been in the crypto space since the 2010s.

Once you get past the scam/hype bullshit anyway.

The excitement around the crypto space is a lot like all the excitement around the Psychic Hotline space of the 1990's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO50TC6WG8A

But psychics didn't burn anywhere near as much coal and cause as much cancer and lung disease as crypto does.

>Once you get past the scam/hype bullshit anyway.

"Well, aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?"

https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/oth...

I'll raise you with the 1980s excitement about satanic cults kidnapping children.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/uncover/new-podcast-explores-how-sa...

Otherwise dunk away lol

Booking.com is the poster child of 'dark UX patterns' like that.

BooKing.com is one of the biggest Perl shops in the world.

They're desperate to hire lots of willing Perl programmers, so they have to set the bar low.

And inexperienced programmers cause lots of security problems.

Edit: My point is about the moral flexibility of BooKing.com, which is well established and widely known, not good Perl programmers, who are rare, hard to hire, and extremely expensive (especially by Netherlands programmer salary rates).

And to jacquesm's point about plants: All any intelligence service has to do to place a plant at BooKing.com is fake them up a good looking resume full of Perl experience, and Bob's your U.N.C.L.E.!

Edit2: yes xxs, downvoting's probably from royalists offended at the thought of one of the Netherland's biggest tech companies has been mocking their King. Good Perl programmers can take a joke. ;)

Are Perl programmers generally more morally flexible than others?

No, I mean that BooKing.com is morally flexible enough to hire anyone who claims they are willing to program in Perl, because it's so damned hard to find good Perl programmers who don't know any other languages they enjoy programming in more, and can't find better jobs than programming in Perl.

If BooKing.com were trying to hire JavaScript programmers, they'd have a vastly more enormous pool of young and old, well educated and self taught, local and remote, highly experienced and self motivated talent to hire from, and wouldn't have to be so flexible about who they hired to program in Perl.

And the moral flexibility of that company (not the programmers) also expresses itself through those "dark UX patterns" that BooKing.com is so famous for.

(Although they should probably talk to somebody about their domain name: I always assumed BooKing.com was an anti-royalist web site. ;) )

I don’t see how being flexible on hiring to meet the market is being morally flexible. There’s nothing immoral about it that I can see.

> If BooKing.com were trying to hire JavaScript programmers, they'd have a vastly more enormous pool of young and old, well educated and self taught, local and remote, highly experienced and self motivated talent to hire from, and wouldn't have to be so flexible about who they hired to program in Perl.

Yes, but then they'd get results in Javascript, which has it's own security nightmares (like npm's recent third-party-code-injection incident.) Given their business most likely involves the need to quickly parse huge amount of text files (think: hotel booking information, SABRE info, ...), Perl might just be the right tool for the job.

I don't know about booking.com's hiring platform, but in my subjective experience, Perl people tend to be more professional and more careful than JS folks.

Sure, people make mistakes and create bugs and security holes in every language. And some languages like PHP attract newbies who know no other language. And other languages like Perl 5 are so syntactically complex that they repel newbies.

But how many schools and classes and youtube videos teach JavaScript? And how many teach Perl?

The fact that there are a lot of bad JavaScript programmers isn't a symptom of JavaScript programmers being bad. It's a symptom of there being a lot of JavaScript programmers. There are also a lot of really excellent JavaScript and TypeScript programmers, just not as many as bad ones.

(But I bet there are more good JavaScript/TypeScript programmers than all Perl 5 programmers plus all Raku programmers (counting everyone who knows both twice), by far.)

To make a gross understatement, TypeScript's evolution from JavaScript didn't take as long, went smoother, wasn't as incompatible, and was more interoperable, successful, and popular than Raku's evolution from Perl 5.

Not to mention it's much easier for a JavaScript programmer to learn TypeScript, and to upgrade JavaScript code to TypeScript code, than moving from Perl 5 to Raku.

(And I also bet BooKing.com isn't upgrading from Perl 5 to Raku any time soon.)

There are more great JavaScript and TypeScript programmers available to hire than mediocre Perl 5 programmers, because Perl 5 is effectively a dead language, while JavaScript and TypeScript are both ubiquitous, thriving, widely taught languages.

JavaScript shops (and also Python and C# and Java shops) actually have the option of not hiring the bad programmers and intelligence agency plants, and hiring lots of the good programmers.

PS: BooKing.com could easily be confused with the evil "King Boo", Luigi's antagonistic arch-nemesis, and scheming ally of Bowser! Why doesn't Nintendo send them a cease and desist for acting so villainous, and seise their rightful domain in the name of King Boo? ;)

https://www.mariowiki.com/King_Boo

>King Boo is the leader of the Boos and ghosts, ruler of the Paranormal Dimension, the main antagonist of the Luigi's Mansion series, and the arch-nemesis of Luigi. He is also an ally of Bowser, who has aided him in his various schemes. He is more than capable of devising and enacting villainous plans by himself, including his capture and imprisonment of Mario. Although not the biggest Boo, King Boo has abilities that far surpass that of the average ghost; he wields a number of impressive magical abilities, including the ability to materialize objects. King Boo's magical power is directly proportional to the number of Boos in his vicinity.

javascript implies well educated? so much LOL here. maybe perl programmers are happy with perl and have no interest in learning yet another programming language.

While there are many Javascript "developers" that don't deserve that title, there are much much more actually-good JS developers than actually-good Perl developers, not to mention the willingness to program Javascript than Perl.

i might be able to accept that there are more javascript developers than perl developers. this then implies there are more good javascript developers, but only if javascript does not attract more wannabe developers. and i think that might be the issue.

No, seriously, there is absolutely no comparison between the number of Perl 5 and JavaScript developers.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020

Most popular technologies:

JavaScript: 67.7% for all devs, 69.7% for pro devs): First place!

Perl: 3.1% for all devs, 3.3% with pro devs: Third from last place, only a wee bit more popular than Haskel and Julia!

And you can take a guess at how many jobs for Haskel and Julia programmers there are.

And it's not like good Perl 5 programmers are dropping dead, or being hit by busses: They're simply moving on to better, more popular, well supported, widely taught, more modern, higher paying, more pleasurable languages!

Any programmer who permanently sticks to only one language and has "no interest in learning yet another programming language" simply isn't a good programmer, no matter what their only language is.

Any decent professional programmer (ESPECIALLY web developers) should have no trouble picking up and applying new languages, and regularly using multiple languages together at the same time every day. The world is not partitions into mono-linguistic silos, and no one language is good for everything.

If those monolinguistic Perl 5 developers b20000 speaks of who refuse to use any other languages are the only ones left for BooKing.com to hire, then it's no wonder they have enormous security holes and terrible buggy hard-to-maintain code.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3026446/the-fall-of-perl-the-web...

No, I actually meant to indicate that there is a densely populated multidimensional spectrum of young to old, local to remote, well education to self taught, highly experienced to self motivated.

While generally speaking, most remaining Perl 5 programmers are old, remote, self taught, highly experienced, very busy, hard to find, and extremely expensive.

There aren't many schools and universities and bootcamps and online learning sites and youtube channels cranking out new Perl 5 programmers that I know of. But there are a hell of a lot of them for JavaScript.

the job of a university is to teach CS, not a specific programming language. javascript is just a language like any other, there is nothing particularly good about it. it became popular because a scripting language was needed in browsers and because every idiot out there wants to become a web developer because they think they will be zuckerburg in 6 months. indeed, there are endless programming bootcamps parasiting off these people as you pointed out.

finally, it is perfectly valid to choose to become BETTER in a tool set instead of learning a new one every year. i’m pretty sure there are many developers out there who have no interest in learning other languages and are content in spending their valuable time learning other skills that are more valuable.

Anti-intellectualism and refusal to learn any other language isn't going to get you a good job or much interesting experience.

You can get better in one language by learning and using several other different languages (the more languages and the more different, the better), which expands the scope of what you know how to do in ANY language.

And if you refuse to learn more than one language, that limits yourself to tasks that don't involve multiple languages, which is a large proportion of the typical tasks a professional programmer encounters. Many common tasks are impossible to do in only one language, since all libraries and apps aren't written in the same language.

Again, my point that you haven't countered is:

Any programmer who permanently sticks to only one language and has "no interest in learning yet another programming language" simply isn't a good programmer, no matter what their only language is.

Have you ever actually met any of those hypothetical monolinguistic Perl 5 developers in person who you're "pretty sure" exist, and actually discussed with them why they refuse to learn or use any other language, and asked them who they work for, and what they work on, and how they enjoy it?

Or will you actually admit to being a monolinguistic Perl 5 programmer yourself, and answer those questions about yourself, please? Or are the people you speak of entirely theoretical and unknown to you?

If you are saying that Perl 5 makes people give up learning other languages, that sounds like a horrible thing about Perl 5, because it's so discouraging, but unfortunately it's probably partly correct for some people.

But not all programming languages are as hard to learn, and program in, and read, and debug, and maintain, and find good jobs for, and hire good programmers for, as Perl 5!

Please don't give up just because you picked the wrong first language to learn.

Any programmer who permanently sticks to only one language and has "no interest in learning yet another programming language" simply isn't a good programmer, no matter what their only language is.

You have not given any reasonable proof for this. If this were true, just to give you one example, linux kernel programmers would be bad programmers.

I used to use Perl for web development, but quit web development years ago. I use primarily one or two programming languages and have zero interest in learning other languages. And that's OK. I've brought multiple succesful products to market. I have chosen what I want to do and have no time or energy to follow fads.

My comments have nothing to do with anti-intellectualism.

I think you are confusing a program that is written in one programming language with people who only program in one programming language.

So name some linux kernel programmers you actually know for a fact that they only know and program in one programming language?

I bet I can name a lot more Linux kernel programmers who know and use multiple programming languages.

Have you considered the possibility that most Linux kernel programmers might have also worked on other programs than the Linux kernel (and didn't just jump into the deep end of Linux kernel hacking as their first job) and actually know and use some other languages other than C? Like maybe Bash, or Assembly, or Python, or Lua, or TCL, or Lisp, or C++, or FORTH, or Pascal, or Fortran, or Java, or C#, or Lord forbid even Perl?

Because Linux kernel hackers tend to be experienced, professional programmers, who know and use multiple languages, not monolinguistic amateurs who gave up learning new languages after only learning C, then started hacking the Linux kernel as their first and only project.

i have also used many other programming languages in the past out of sudden necessity just like anyone else. that does not mean i have any interest in maintaining those or learning new languages. i don’t need to be lectured on what i need to do, thanks.

i know perfectly well what point i am making and you do not have to spin this differently and try to make me look like a fool. you stated that anyone who is not interested in learning a new language is a bad programmer, and you are wrong. people make choices for different reasons.

They grep what they can.

This is pretty much my experience talking to some of their developers on conferences. Why the downvotes? edit I see: booking capiatlization

> especially by Netherlands programmer salary rates

Well Booking.com pays about double of that.

at the same time the UI is awesome. using booking.com on a regular basis and I'm quite happy with it.

When searching for an accomodation, booking.com offers a map, which shows the price of each accomodation, with filters applied. This is so useful and I wish other travel sites also had this.

A list of a 200 hotels of $50-100 is simply not enough information when searching in an unknown city. I need to narrow down that list, for example with features like a kitchenette (60 hotels left), but also a location near the city center, and not 20-30 minutes away in some suburb (20 hotels left). With booking.com I can now see on a map 20 pins of hotels with their pricing. Ok, some hotels are hostels with a Shared-6 room, which is one filter you cannot actually apply unfortunately (hey booking.com, if you are reading this, this is a hint!).

..then I know the hotel names, and search on the hotel's own site or other travel sites if there are any deals (genius dicounts sometimes help). Sometimes, Booking.com is cheapest, sometimes it is not.

The best hotel search engine I have used to date is kayak.de, a company from Berlin. The offer most if not all of the features you described and compare a variety of different booking portals.

I'm not completely sure how biased they are in their ranking. But I've been using this site for the last few years and never had any problems. I recommended this site to a few of my friends who shared my positive experience.

kayak.de is owned by the same company (Booking Holdings): https://www.kayak.de/about

Kayak is headquartered in the US and owned by Booking.com

>When searching for an accomodation, booking.com offers a map, which shows the price of each accomodation, with filters applied. This is so useful and I wish other travel sites also had this.

Trivago does the same and maybe others, too.

Doesn't hotels.com also have the same filters? I just tried it now, and I could filter by facilities (kitchen) and distance to landmarks

Have you checked trivago?

https://www.trivago.com/

I agree. Their website and mobile app as well seem to be of very high quality (though unfortunately it is not that hard to be exceptionally good in that compared to all the buggy software around us)

I have seen their presentation on a ML-related conference and what goes into which pictures they show for you for a given room is quite advanced. E.g. whether you will prefer a photo of a pool vs a nice room, etc.

what about facebook?

Facebook is kinda tame compared to Booking.com.

Imagine Facebook if the like counts and comments were all false, and there were things flying across your screen saying "20 people are reading this comment, you should also do it". Then you got Booking.com.

I cannot recall anything concrete but from HN and other tech news platforms I heard only bad things about the platform.

It's a common discussion topic -- a few links:

Bad UX: How Booking.com deceives clients

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15152155

https://medium.com/@ilyadoroshin/bad-ux-how-booking-com-dece...

How Booking.com manipulates users (ro-che.info)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297915

https://ro-che.info/articles/2017-09-17-booking-com-manipula...

[dupe] Dark Patterns (darkpatterns.org)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20858714

https://www.darkpatterns.org/

Successful machine learning models: lessons learned at Booking.com

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21182445

https://blog.acolyer.org/2019/10/07/150-successful-machine-l...

Dark Patterns at Scale: Findings from a Crawl of 11K Shopping Websites (2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25968531

https://webtransparency.cs.princeton.edu/dark-patterns/

The way I use booking.com: Search for a suitable hotel or apartment and find their name. Then search for them independently and make the reservation directly. I mean: they have a great search interface and all, but I refuse to funnel money to gatekeepers whenever I can... Stories like this just affirm my suspicions about companies like them...

To play the devil's advocate here - I do the same as you, but last month when I booked a 3 week vacation Booking offered better prices than the hotels themselves. They also didn't pull any stunts like other hotel aggregators do (show you a price and change it when you get to the checkout). I also had a single instance in the past where I wanted to prolong my stay at a hotel, and the hotel clerk told me I'd get a better deal if I booked through Booking, which I did.

Generally I think you're right, but I guess it depends.

The difference is on the "kind" of Hotel.

A "traditional" hotel will (should) have a proper "bookings/reservation" procedure a "modern" one may well rely entirely on booking.com or similar.

Moreover it depends on the "incentives" (or lack thereof) of the actual people at the reception, in large hotels (or chains of hotels) why employee/clerk - say - #215 (possibly a low paid intern) would want to actually work to make your reservation (as you can do it yourself online, less work and responsibilities for him/her).

If you think a bit about it, when you book on one of these sites, you take all responsibilities about dates (arrival departure) people (number of people in each room) types of rooms (like two/three bed, queen size or king size bed, etc.) type of accomodation (with/without breakfast).

It is not entirely uncommon that people arrives on the "wrong" date or has miscalculated the days of stay (rare but happens from time to time), or - this happens quite often - having booked a single use room for two people or similar, simply because of a slip on the finger or not having read the whole page of info on the accomodation.

If you write or (when possible better) talk with the reception, usually they can verify your request and offer you more options (like - say - a "family room" for 4 people instead of two doubles, or a room with a large balcony if you are traveling with a pet).

> Booking offered better prices than the hotels themselves

In this case, you can contact the hotel and ask for a better offer. Works sometimes.

I've tried this many times and the hotel usually says "I guess you should book it online then"

That's so weird huh? I really don't understand it.

My guess is that they have some separate incentive from Booking.com etc to drive bookings through those platforms. The same places usually have a proudly displayed bullshit "9.9 average on Booking.com" somewhere in the foyer.

It’s because booking purchases the rooms wholesale, and typically well in advance of the stay dates. They can offer you a lower price because hotels use them to make their business more predictable.

I work at Booking. We do not do this and never have. Other OTAs do, like Expedia. It’s the merchant vs. agent model.

Oops, sorry!

I hear this a lot, but do you have a source? They should have got absolutely wrecked at the start of the pandemic if they were doing this.

I wonder when will people stop being surprised that any corporation puts profit as it's end goal.

Them being nice for a while, it just a coincidence of aligned interests.

Court mandated fines are taken into the account - if profit increase is higher than the fine, what's stopping them from going forward with such idea?

How about we go after the actual fucking culprit for a change?

who? or rather what?

the current system that makes is the most rational action to take?

> They’re not interested in anything but profit above all else

Not disagreeing with you, but why is it a surprise to anyone? Any company that seems to be “nice” is only doing that as a good PR increases their profits, which depending on domain may be very important.

It’s not necessarily about PR. Being nice is good business. The problem is being nice is good in the long term while being a greedy bastard generally pays more immediate dividends.

Any public company, perhaps. Private companies could decide to care about profit not as much and be genuinely 'nice' -- though the invisible hand would probably come along at some point and replace it with something more profit oriented.

I find it unfortunate that the "invisible hand" is somehow seen as a real force of nature. It's a spooky, ideological term that implies some kind of simple generality describing a system that is everything but simple. Additionally it is used as a bad excuse for exploitative, oppressive or otherwise shitty behavior - which is ironic, because that is exactly the thing that is claimed _not_ to happen by definition.

There are real firms in highly competitive markets that have been doing well for decades or even more than a hundred years without putting the profit motive above everything else, but have favored long term stability, cooperation, servicing customers, respecting workers and so on.

Yeah, there's little regard for legalities as long as it's not _obviously_ bothering clients. Lying to both customers and partners doesn't seem to raise any eyebrows.

but that is what all property management companies do as well it seems, in california, tell you there are only 2 units to choose from while 30% of the building is empty?

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