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> What is HackersNews and tech’s romantic obsession with Tokyo?

I guess you should be the one telling us?

> I went to this building last month to take pictures. Japanese people only started to stop after I did.

For sight seeing, I cover every block of a city.

This is the equivalent of asking what is the appeal to Starbucks or Time Square? Just because non American tourists love visiting it doesn’t mean they’re significant. One of a kind yes. Interesting? More from a sociological perspective than inherent.

But you are attributing a specific reason for upvoting to a group of disparate people's based on... nothing? You think that people upvoting this are doing it because they are edgy or find it romantic, while you went to see it for a noble reason.

This is BS. People upvote this for many reason that you have no idea about. I personally find capsule hotels a weird but socially interesting thing. I have 0 interest in going into one, and find them the opposite of romantic, but that doesn't mean it's not interesting.

What I personally find edgy is your gatekeeping about an absolutely anodine thing.

> People upvote this for many reason that you have no idea about.

You’ve changed your argument after I provided context that by going here and taking pictures, was not indication that it is special to me. Again my question remains.

The unique thing about this building is its architecture. This is not an article about capsule hotels. So yes, I do think it’s getting attention because of its form. This building in particular has shown its not a viable economic / business model as a hotel.

There are all forms of capsule hotels, some much more mundane like a glorified hostel.

As for Japan, I follow every thread that trend here about Japan. I realized they are always about things that Japanese people do not care about. Thus my point about Non-Japanese romanticizing these concepts. Otherwise, why do we not see articles about the Shinsengumi, Tadao Ando, Yohji Yamamoto, or Rei Kawakubo ? Every culturally up to date Japanese person knows those names, but I would bet most of HackerNews don’t. They wouldn’t trend here.

Of course you are interested in capsule hotels, most foreigners are. To the Japanese, this is just space efficient and economically motivated, convenient, which are things Japanese people value. I don’t see what’s weird about it. The fact that you think it’s weird reflects an appeal to different cultural values, possibly where you live land is abundant.

Fascinating. I've never heard of someone moving abroad because they were conservative. HN frowns on political discussion but have you written anything on the subject?

This is why I framed the question of why HackerNews is obsessed with a country like Japan. The vast majority of foreigners who go to Japan thinking it’s a NYC or London, but with anime or better sushi, grow to hate it. The Reddit group for foreigners in Japan are some of the most cynical and bitter concentration of people I ever seen.

I think democracy can’t succeed without responsibility, and Americans ( I am American ) have IMO been irresponsible this past few years. That should be apolitical. Things like wearing a mask.

The vast majority of foreigners hanging out on /r/japan are English teachers stuck in dead-end jobs and loveless marriages, which is a pretty good recipe for becoming cynical and bitter. Most foreigners I know in Tokyo who have decent careers are quite happy.

I do not think it is really that uncommon for locals not to be interested or to have visited many of the local tourist attractions.

Appropriately enough, there's a Japanese saying for this: 灯台下暗し todai moto kurashi, literally "it's dark right below the lighthouse".

Excellent. I will steal this.

I couldn’t disagree more, at least from my experience in the US Pacific NW - sure, there are some lesser-known local spots, but everything from the best restaurants to the best nature spots are equally frequented by locals and tourists. (Said from the perspective of a long-term resident of Seattle, Portland, Medford and Bend).

I used to travel around my country by moving to a place for a couple of years, living and working there, then moving on. What I have found is that locals rarely know more than a handful of significant places, with few receiving much thought and most being unseen since childhood. More often than not, the best people to meet on such adventures where those who viewed travel though a similar lens since they knew more of local history and geography than most locals or travel guides.

I don't want to dismiss locals entirely. Some have a genuine interest in where they live. That being said, the local who knows a lot seems just as likely to be someone who relocated there as someone who was born there. Someone who doesn't take their place for granted because it wasn't their place to start with.

There are definitely touristy things in Seattle that people do not go out of their way to unless showing visitors around, like the Underground Tour, the Space Needle, and Pike Place.

You think all those vegetables are being bought and cooked in hotels by tourists?

I certainly don't think anyone is willingly driving into the parking Armageddon that is downtown Seattle to shop for groceries at Pike Place.

if you live there or if you have a use case to buy something really fresh I suppose you'd go there. but downtown proper is not all that residential.

Restaurants and the like are different. But, for example, have you gone up to the Space Needle? That's kind of a tourist only thing. I live in near the other Washington (DC) and only went up to the top of the Washington Monument a few years ago when guests wanted to.

I don't think the interest is HackerNews-specific, there are YouTube videos featuring this building that have millions of views.

It's simply interesting to some people, no need to get worked up over it. :)

The building also appears in the movie The Wolverine, and may have been referenced as William Gibson's titular New Rose Hotel.

It's a familiar sight, and a familiar idea, around the world, much like "The Gherkin" in London or the Sydney Opera House. Its architectural oddness makes it stand out, and media presence gives it wide exposure.

Interestingly, the tour boat for Gunkanjima wss filled with Japanese tourists.

My grievance is with people picking and choosing things they like about Japan, then come here and have no regard or respect for Japanese people. This is not Disneyland, which is not to say you should be respectful at Disneyland.

Or going to these places with drones, tripods, blocking the sidewalk. Japanese people do it, too, but it's their country, and people are less timid to politely ask them to stop.

There's Logan Paul with the suicidal forest. Of course, not every tourist is that bad, but I do observe that foreigners in Japan disproportionately by a factor of 10x refuse to wear a mask.

There are no tourists in Japan. There haven’t been for about the past 1.5 years.

> The Shinsengumi.

How does that come up in casual conversation? In all my time in Japan it never occurred to me that there was a latent, untapped desire to discuss the 1860s.

Not that I disagree about how people from other places typically fetishizes random slightly-famous objects or buildings or behaviors well beyond the point anyone near there cares about. But that's not Japan specific either, and is more than nobody really feels the need to get super excited about things nearby them just for being there.

The Shinsengumi are a meme by now, there's endless TV dramas, movies, manga adaptations, etc. It's kind of hard to draw a Western parallel, but maybe the FBI during the Al Capone/Prohibition era when they were fighting against cartoon villain gangsters.

Other Japanese obsessions that tourists struggle to grok include Saigo Takamori and Ryoma Sakamoto, who ironically enough were both opponents of the Shinsengumi.

For HNers who've never heard of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinsengumi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakamoto_Ry%C5%8Dma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saig%C5%8D_Takamori

> How does that come up in casual conversation?

Kyoto. Plus, they keep making movies about it.

It's also a way to discretely gauge people's political leanings.

> But that's not Japan specific either, and is more than nobody really feels the need to get super excited about things nearby them just for being there.

Fair. But here on HN it's both.

I agree with your points. I dont know why some people are creepily obsessed with Japan. Many people seem to develop their idealized version of a society in their head and then project that image onto Japan and Japanese people whereas it is far from reality.

Japan is very interesting for a lot of reasons.

1. An incredibly stable society which is at the same time fantastically, amazingly creative. And not just in the traditional arts, which have been wowing Europeans since they first saw Japanese woodcuts in the 19th Century, but in literature, video games, film, fashion, and modern arts as well. Just explosions of creativity with Japan represented as among the best in each area.

2. A society that very strongly values quality, responsibility, safety, nature, and beautiful spaces. I very much wish we were able to build livable cities that were as clean, human-scaled, walkable, and safe as in Japan.

3. Fascinating economy in which massive government deficit spending shows no signs of raising interest rates or inflation. Basically the opposite of what most modern economists expect, as well as the opposite of how most western nations behave. This could be in part due to the strong cultural premium on safety and security by individual households.

4. Historically, the first non-Western nation to industrialize, and to have done so relatively early along its own unique development path.

5. The best restaurants in the world, and Japanese cuisine is wildly popular.

6. Zen Buddhism is popular in the West.

7. A lot of people are fans of Japanese manufacturing and design.

This romanticized view doesn't look at the problems of Japan:

- high suicide and depression rates - excessive work culture - irrational fear of foreigners - widespread addictions: gambling, alcohol, anime, games - "best restaurants in the world" and being "creative" are just your opinions

First, it's not a romanticized view.

Second, it's odd that you feel the need to say negative things about Japan to "counter" someone who points out Japanese achievements. Like, what exactly is your problem with Japan that you are bothered when someone says something positive about it? Has Japan hurt you somehow?

If someone points out the achievements of say, France, do you also feel the need to jump in and point out negative things about France and to minimize their achievements? They also have great cuisine, a great history of excellence in the arts and sciences. Does that statement need to be "countered" with something?

Could you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? We ban accounts that do that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It's odd that you are so aggressively defending Japan.

How is you having an opinion that they have "the best restaurants in the world" an achievement of Japan?

Secondly, if you read the original comment I made, I am agreeing with someone who states that many people develop an idealized concept in their mind and project this image onto Japan.

This appears to be exactly what you have done and my "negative things" I have said are facts well-known I listed to show your points are not conclusive.

Edit: I am amused you edited your comment to try to paint this as an ethnic debate. You are clearly arguing in bad faith and I will not waste my time further.

Could you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? We ban accounts that do that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> high suicide [...] rates

Where are you getting your data about suicide in Japan from?

This comes off as preachy and has a gate keeping vibe. "No other foreigner understands Japan the way I do!"

Tourists are gonna do tourist things. Do I care about the plane loads of tourists flooding American scenic spots -- nope. Do I care if they are obsessed about some relic that I don't even know exists -- nope.

People like what they like. Tourists, by definition, aren't gonna be into the same things as the locals.

Also, I asked my fiancé what the "Shinsengumi" was, and her reaction was definitely not "wide eyed excitement", but rather like, "yeah I know about it...why?"

I definitely agree there is some romanticization that goes on with any and all things Japanese -- but, it also goes both ways.

Also, you do realize the hypocrisy of you stopping to take pics of this very building. But I suppose you, being so enlightened, are doing it the proper way.

Nakagin is interesting to people who are into architecture. If you assume the same % of people in Japan and outside Japan are into architecture, naturally you'll have a lot more non-Japanese than Japanese in that group.

Join me on a tour of the Seagrams building tour!?! Niche locations exist everywhere but some of them make their own money.

It's interesting. Isn't that enough? I wouldn't call it an obsession really.

You went to take pictures, so it must be something right?

I go to every “point of interest”. I’ve literally been to hundreds of temples and thousands of place in Kyoto alone, 996 for a year.

Places like this is only significant to westerners. It’s aesthetic to me because it’s decaying, but doesn’t mean I think it needs to be preserved.

Asking "what is their obsession" but then trying to delineate your own as something special or different is pretty weird but okay. Tech folks have been weebs (and then some) for a long time, it's not a secret and I think it's well past being surprising.

Anyway, maybe it is not beloved by the locals. I'd defer to you on that point, but also, is there some reason foreigners can't find it beloved even while locals do not? Lets say they are over-romanticizing it -- that's fine, their opinions are likely not considered in the fate of the building anyway.

> weebs

That term is heavily centered on games, anime, manga and nerd culture. None of which I have interest in. I've been to Akihabara once which I'm sure you are familiar with, and I have no interest in going back.

What do you think my obsession is? I'm specifically in Japan for political reasons. Maybe it's obsession with society, rather than culture. I'm in Japan because I care about individual responsibility, and Japan doesn't trigger me.

I actually minored in architectural history. My point of contention is whether it is the architecture, or that this unique architecture which is in Japan?

> is there some reason foreigners can't find it beloved

And yet it only exists in Japan.

Also, just because people have good intentions in loving something doesn't mean it's good. That's what leads to orientalism. Did you know Memoirs of Geisha was written by an old man from Tennessee?

Not saying it should be preserved. The architecture is interesting. People here like architecture. That's enough.

Architectural appeal is cultural. I minored in architectural history as well as Japanese history.

People here might say they like architecture, but not might be familiar with Japan’s most celebrated mainstream architect, Tadao Ando. My apartment is designed by him, too. Back to my point about what the west perceives as interesting about Japan versus what Japanese people’s actual priorities.

I still don’t think the argument that this obsolete capsule hotel is worth preserving as a cultural asset makes sense. I think the biased trigger word about this article for me is “beloved”. Beloved, but to whom?

Cool

> People here might say they like architecture, but not might be familiar with Japan’s most celebrated mainstream architect, Tadao Ando

Does this offend you?

Tourists are weird by definition because people are interested in seeing the things that are different/unique relative to the context they are from, and those things get way more interesting if the locals find them normal because it highlights the cultural difference.

So I try not to take offense if visitors aren't interested in the same things I am - the real challenge is whether they respect the differences in those things.

Actually, it has little to do with cyberpunk. The "capsules" referred to in Gibson weren't this building, but rather "capsule hotels", tiny hotel rooms usually used by drunken businessmen after a night out who wanted to sleep it off rather than going home and embarrassing themselves to their family.

Personally I don't care which country it's in. I care that it's interesting, unique architecture that's important to the history of architecture from that time.

I care because I used to live in a capsule apartment myself, and it was a great time of my life.

Of course I realize it’ll have to go, but I’ll still be sad to see it do so.

"The trigger word about the article to me is “beloved”."

Seems like your beef is with the Guardian which used that word in the title.

The word "beloved" comes from The Guardian, not HN users.

> What is HackersNews and tech’s romantic obsession with Tokyo / things Japan?

The real answer is hard to pin down, but I've got a few guesses. It all started in the 80s, when Japan started mass-producing electronics and was poised to become a sort of computer-based superpower. They got to live this out in the following decade, investing heavily in the tech sector and integrating western/global culture into pretty much everything they were exporting. The 90s also saw the rise of the internet, and with Japan being so small it was relatively easy to connect the majority of the population. This gave Japan a pretty considerable presence across the world, with the rise of imageboards and IRC. Combined with their pop-culture presence, the country enjoyed quite a bit of western attention regarding everything from anime to J-Pop.

From here, things get considerable more subjective. I think Japan's fetishization of other cultures hit a boiling point in the 2000s, and with the rise of domestic western tech corporations like Microsoft and Apple, Japan was sorta strongarmed out of the room. Despite this, their cultural influence can be seen in a lot of the so-called great minds of our generation. Steve Jobs was infatuated with Japanese culture, and famously built a zen garden on his estate after seeing one in a real-life trip to Japan. Celebrities like Kanye West and Brie Larson normalized anime and Japanese culture even further, to the point of near-assimilation with today's youth.

Thank you for this. I really appreciate this response and was the kind of thoughtful and serious intellectual response I was looking for.

Most of the other arguments were to the tune of 'the fact that you took a picture indicates it's interesting. You tell us' without addressing the question. I quit FANG, turned down hedge fund offers, and moved Japan for very different reasons than most people, so my personal answer isn't that informative here. Architecturally, there are much more interesting buildings, so that's not the complete answer here.

A good example of the phenomenon I'm addressing is reflected by the show Billions. Arguably, Tech and finance arguably have more in common than other with any other professions. In Billions, there were more subtle elements of Japanese admiration, but in a more studied and sophisticated way, especially by the character Wags.

> What is HackersNews and tech’s romantic obsession with Tokyo / things Japan?

Maybe it's all the neon, maybe it's the dystopian off-planet like capsule tower, but I wouldn't be the first to say that Japan has that not-to-distant futuristic vibe. When non-Japanese see pictures of Japan (well at least for me and I'd hazard a guess many others here on HN), it's almost like looking at scenes from a scifi, cyberpunk, action thriller.