As a developer, if you target iOS and Android your app should not compete with their apps, you have to get it approved and you have to get them a 30% cut for nothing.
Why can't installing software on mobiles work exactly like on desktop?
Yet most Android apps are only available over the Play store. It's a classic platform effect: all the customers are on the Play Store, so all the Apps are the, so all the customers are there. Windows never managed to get this kickstarted (not for lack of trying).
For app categories that aren't allowed on the Play store providing the apk works and it doesn't seem to be too much to ask of people. But if your competitor is on the Play store and you aren't then you lose on convenience. And of course the mobile app pattern of updating your app every other day only really works with the auto-updates of app stores.
I'm not sure I can fault Google for any of that. We can fault them for preventing other App stores from gaining traction by withholding features from them in the past, but the decision to use an App store at all isn't forced on anyone (on Android, iPhones are a different story)
There is no energy efficient way to listen for notifications unless you use Google's solution that they baked into the kernel.
It isn't much to ask, actually, such services are pretty easy to create.
What is the downside of using Google's? You can E2E encrypt messages and using firebase for notifications is free.
Even here I've had a lot of arguments with people who say it is a very good thing. And of course they don't care about people in countries like Russia or China where the Apple submits to government requests to remove certain apps - leaving their users unable to run them at all.
I’m pretty tired of people telling me what is “good” for me. When they don’t know my situation or how I use my tools.
The product you’re advocating for exists - I didn’t buy it on purpose. I know it exists, I looked into it and it wasn’t for me. I don’t want the product I chose to turn into that other product - that would be a bad thing. That would be anti-consumer and anti-choice - I don’t regret the choices I made and I’m regularly reminded that they were the correct choice to make.
I’m educated and mature enough to know what is good for me, I don’t need a random telling me what is good for me. Stop pretending to know what is good for me - you don’t know what is good for me and using jail metaphors doesn’t make you sound convincing - it makes you sound biased with a predetermined outcome. Don’t try to “market” to me using such words, they are transparent.
Contrary to your hand waving of the concerns of others - there remains legitimate issues with that approach, and arguably it’s good that both options exist in the market.
I have said this a dozen times and I will keep saying it: being able to exercise the same level of control (on a device you own) as the company that manufactured it and sold it is a matter of consumer rights, not choice. In the same way that the law requires car makers to adhere to certain standards and make parts available, the same thing should happen with electronics that have any sort of chip capable of running any code. It should be straight up outlawed that a company can have more control over a device than its end user, even after the end user has bought it.
I understand that I don't have the right to take an unsafe vehicle on the road. That's logical, as it impacts others. But saying that I have a right I must exercise in a certain way (i.e. must have full ownership of devices), even when it affects no-one else, isn't a right, it's a duty.
Surely then you wouldn’t install anything you didn’t want to, if non-App Store installation was possible?
To use your metaphor, we’re talking about the sedan also having a switch that turns it into a 4WD, only as needed and for those who want it.
My job might require me to install apps from Honest Achmed's App Store, Certificate Authority, and Used Cars (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647959).
I would have bought an Android if I wanted a free-for-all platform with limited security updates, multiple app stores, and other debris; I chose an iPhone so I wouldn't have to deal with these issues.
However that’s not how things work - and eventually I will be forced to use it to achieve the tasks I achieve today without it.
Advocate for yourself, but don’t pretend to advocate on my behalf when you’re actually just advocating for yourself.
Then when everyone is advocating for themselves - that will reveal who is the actual minority.
There are people living in actual dictatorship countries who can't access the information vital to them, because Apple and Google happily do business with brutal dictators?
What!? Because someone buys an Apple phone they don’t want anyone else to be able to choose their own phone?
I use an iPhone and I fully support you making your own choices. I hope you used your choice to vote with your wallet and buy a pine phone or a librem.
I can't even fathom what's in brains of people who are fine with that!
It won't go away from your phone if already installed, but Apple sure has this ability.
With the App Store mechanic Apple can collectively bargain on behalf of users. Do you think companies would allow anonymous signin on a third party App Store? Or post how they collect and use your data? Of course not. Apple makes that happen.
If you want to use more than one App Store just buy an Android phone and get on with your day. If the Apple model of a single store is truly the inferior model Apple will be forced by market mechanics to allow others.
Speaking of silly slogans, how does my freedom to install an app on MY device degrade your experience?
Again, all this talk about freedom but you’re the one insisting that two consenting parties change what they do because that’s what you want. You’re going to need a better argument than that. Why are you bothering Apple and I from a consensual and peaceful transaction? How are we harming you? What “freedom” is being taken away? I guess you believe you alone have the freedom to “buy an iPhone from Apple that allows 3rd party app stores”. But I don’t have the freedom to buy an iPhone from apple that doesn’t allow this? Or that Apple doesn’t have the freedom to sell the device they want to sell?
You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage".
Also, about 'two consenting parties'. Apple never tells their users that they will be unable to run the apps they NEED. They tell 'we remove malware and keep you safe'. When a user finds out that Apple removed an app run by opposition on request of the authoritarian government, it is too late to ask for a refund.
I do not consent for this keeping me 'safe', but the vast majority of users do not know that they aren't free to use their devices as they want, running any app they need.
> You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage
No, I wrote what I wanted to write.
Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best.
Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide.
Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
No. The solution is very simple.
Apple should simply allow users to install apps at will, sidestepping the AppStore. China tells to remove Signal from the AppStore? Whatever, Apple complies and users download it directly from Signal, sidestepping the great firewall via VPN or something.
This problem in its entirety was created by Apple's malicious desire to control what users can run on their devices. Consequently, this gives bad actors big leverage over Apple, which is forced to serve not only its greedy needs, but also the needs of those bad actors.
Problem solved?
Btw, how would you feel if you wouldn't be allowed to run any app you want on your MacBook? Apple rolls out new macOS 16, says, " For your own safety, AppStore is now mandatory".
Apple maintains a curated App Store, which puts them in gatekeeper mode for Chinese laws, in China.
I respect, appreciate, and value a curated App Store. The combination of circumstances above does conflict with my preference for the freedom of Chinese citizens.
But my disagreement is with the Chinese government, and their lack of accountability to the Chinese people. It's ethnocentric of me to assume that the Chinese people want Western-style freedoms -- and some evidence of unknown quality says they generally do not -- but I still believe that there are intrinsic rights of all humans which should not be oppressed by their governments.
I also believe that allowing alternative App Stores, or sideloading, on iOS would be destructive. By being the only game in town, Apple is able to enforce standards that are onerous sometimes (as an iOS developer) and unfairly applied sometimes (because that's a universal truth of the world), but on net add great value to iOS.
You obviously disagree, and that's cool. I'm very glad you are able to choose a product that suits your needs, and I am able to choose a product that suits mine.
Re: macOS App Store. It's different because I treat my phone as an appliance that should not surprise me nor require maintenance. It should always work. All apps should perform a function, and they should be available without extra hassles.
However, I don't hate the idea of additional OS protections on macOS. I like SIP and the ChromeOS RO boot partition model. I would like application segmentation. I use jails on FreeBSD and zones on Solaris.
This is easy for me to appreciate because I have other machines that are tuned to suit other sets of needs. I recognize that people with a single device (phone) or two devices (phone + laptop) who have needs that would conflict with OS restrictions will struggle more than I.
Your long argument boils down to this. I believe that the effect will be the opposite. Increased competition always benefits the customers. AppStore experience on the developer and on the user side is quite lacking, so if Apple would be forced to compete, everybody (but Apple) will benefit.
And it will also remove the leverage bad state actors like Russia or China have over the company.
You see, iPhone and iPad are not 'appliances', they are supercomputers, and users who want to use them as such must have this option.
This is clearly not an absolute truth, as it depends entirely on your criteria for evaluation.
> You see, iPhone and iPad are not 'appliances', they are supercomputers,
Nope. They're little toy tools. Doesn't matter the processing power, if it's consumed in adding filters to social media photos, or running an ssh session.
> and users who want to use them as such must have this option
But they do. There are other products.
By this logic, users who want the security of knowing they don't have to worry about the device, and want the value conferred by a common platform where vendors don't require users to do weird shit because they don't want to play by benevolent overlord's rules -- thereby cheapening the entire ecosystem ... "must have this option" also.
Look, I get it. We disagree. But your preferences are not any more important than mine. It's a mistake to present your strongly-held preferences as absolute truth.
I repeat once again: you should not have the ability to impose your lack of the need for freedom on other people. "Buy another device" is not a valid choice. Users buy in because they are advertised 'great user experience', but then this turns into 'we'll block apps that you need on request from your local authocrats'. They aren't told in advance that Apple will abuse their monopoly position and unfair and abusive practice of not allowing third party installs.
You should not (and you do not) have the ability to impose your demands on any manufacturer of any product. You cannot compel the work of another human being.
Product advertising always comes with presumed context. "Less filling, tastes great" might be a lie, but even if many people agree, many others do not. "Great user experience" is about as obviously-subjective as you can get. This is a red herring.
Apple does not abuse a monopoly position. Apple does not have a monopoly on anything. It is not unfair or abusive to not compromise their device and ecosystem (security, privacy, marketing, etc) to allow a niche use.
In fact it would be a terrible technical and business decision to reduce the value of your flagship product for the vast majority of the market, to serve a sliver of same.
Again: we disagree. If you can't grow past the overdramatic language of righteousness to think about this issue rationally, we will not be able to communicate. I am not insisting that you will agree with me if you are rational -- but you're presenting the arguments of someone who is incapable of thinking beyond their own nose, or believes that the truth they've found for themselves is universal. In short, like a child or a zealot.
Of course that control is not always good, but it's also not always bad.
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...
If you just don’t buy an iPhone then maybe market forces will cause Ape to add this (to your eyes) feature.
That's exactly what I did, but I know several iPhone users who don't feel comfortable making the switch despite being unhappy with Apple's policies. It's a big deal to change ecosystems for people who are heavy mobile users. It might mean getting new accessories, learning new apps (or not having a direct replacement for an app), and losing several other benefits of being in a single ecosystem.
It's ridiculous to say that customers should shut up and take their business elsewhere. If current users don't speak up about Apple's consumer/developer-hostile behavior, who will?
> developer-hostile
It's the developers who are mostly hostile TBH. That's why they're railing against things like Apple enforcing data permissions or making developers at least nominally fess up to how they are fucking you and stealing your data. Developers aren't some magical good "guy/gal" to be put on a pedestal.
Why does you not wanting multiple app stores matter? Many Android users don't set foot outside the Play store and you could do the same. Apple supporting "sideloading" or even just supporting the PWA spec would only increase the options for using your phone, without forcing you to change your current usage at all.
> It's the developers who are mostly hostile TBH.
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous. Apple has a long track record of developer-hostile behavior.
No I'm not. Developers are clearly user-hostile. Facebook anyone? This is obvious.
> Why does you not wanting multiple app stores matter?
Because if developers can leave the Apple App Store and move to third party app stores, then all of the benefits of collective bargaining that go along with Apple making developers do things like support Apple anonymous ID, or state what they use data for, go out the window because Apple loses it's dominant position on the platform. And there is little to no benefit for me as a user. I don't care if Netflix (contrived example) makes less money because Apple takes a cut. Apple provides me with a valuable and easy to use payment mechanism. It's not worth the trade-off for me. So yea I'm going to oppose something that doesn't add value to me and takes away value from me.
Once and again, you project your needs (or lack of them) on other people.
Your reasoning is exactly this: "I don't like gay people. Gay sex should not be allowed".
"Vote with your wallet" is a bogus argument because undercutting the rights of the consumers that actually pay for the device and own it, in effect means that consumers end up with no choice. If Apple says you can only install apps from App Store, and Google says Android phones will spy on you, who do I turn to if I don't want both these features? There is no real choice, not only because corporates form alliances and behave like cartels to not only stem competition but also to ensure the rights of the consumers are suppressed (e.g. Apple has actively lobbied against the right-to-repair movement). Suppressing consumer rights only benefits big businesses.
No it’s not. You guys guys spend all this time complaining about Apple and Google. But getting them to change is going to be a long game if they change at all.
What you guys are not doing is promoting phones that are open. These products aren’t going to get better without customers.
As it stands, what it looks like is you guys hate Apple and Google and then just turn around and buy more of their products.
That criticism is somewhat true and the reason for it is that it is a short term solution - it still means you are accepting that corporates gets to dictate how your devices should be and what you can do with it. (For the short term, absolutely - let's support and buy their products too. For e.g. I don't own an iPhone or Android phone and instead rely on https://sailfishos.org/ ).
I am all for free market and capitalism. But you have to first understand the nature of both.
For-profit companies will always choose the most profitable path. The more profit you make, the longer you survive in the market and the better you can squeeze out your competition. Open devices mean less profit. And that is why none of the current BigTech are focusing on it. As capitalists they would be fools to sacrifice their profits for something that will make them less money. Moreover, what guarantees do you have that tomorrow that these same open devices won't end up closed? Or that one of the BigTech won't buy them and scuttle their product when they become competitive (because that's exactly what they will do)?
This is why we have consumer rights and government regulations - without them businesses would only focus on more profits and, black marketing, hoarding, and other anti-consumer and anti-competitive behaviours would still be very dominant in the market.
That is why the real long-term solution is demanding existing consumer rights / regulations be enfored and / or new ones be created as necessary.
Or is it that consumer rights only matter when they come from you?
Every time this conversation comes up people act as though the 3rd-party App Store stuff is a good thing that everyone inherently wants and if you don't want it you must be violating some user rights or w/e and be a corporate shill for apple against the innocent little poor developer community.
All platforms, software or otherwise have restrictions of some sort. I can't just sell whatever I want at Wal-Mart or Amazon. Maybe consumers do want products with lead in them if they're cheaper - who are you to deny their freedom of choice? I'll take my own risk thank you very much.
So w/e. Frame it how you want. Ultimately it'll happen but it's going to suck hardcore. Thankfully I don't use products like Facebook so I won't have to worry about them siphoning my data directly on my iPhone but there's no doubt they and other companies going to move to a 3rd-party store or create their own so they can do whatever they want. Put lead in products, take user's data, w/e, and in the end nothing of value will actually be gained. Netflix and Facebook and whoever will make more money because they won't have to pay Apple to use the iPhone platform. You're just pitting some billion dollar corporations versus others and siding with some over others. You'll have this principled freedom of a worse experience of adware, malware, and scummy user-hostile behavior.
You do realise that if the rights of the consumers are upheld, as many are advocating for, you could use whatever app store you want, right?
https://www.wired.com/story/bezos-phone-hack-mbs-saudi-arabi...
It's less about harming yourself and more about harming your phone. This is your personal emergency lifeline device. It cannot go down. I know they do, but my point is that everything about the software experience should tend towards 100% uptime. This is key. It's more important than almost any other aspect of the device. It's way more important on mobile than it is on a desktop.
If your desktop locks up, you can hit reboot and make a tea, or go chat to your boss.
If your mobile locks up, you might stay buried in that avalanche longer than is healthy.
It IS a travesty. Apple didn't advertise beforehand that they would cooperate with dictators and block apps which dictators don't like.
If Apple pulled out entirely, people in Russia still wouldn't have their smart voting app. If Apple resisted the Russian government, they would've been banned. And you still wouldn't have your smart voting app. Do people imagine a world where Apple has the power to forcefully ask the Russian government to yield on their domestic affairs?
Seriously, Apple acts as if still owns the devices after selling them. If that's so, maybe they should refund the devices to users and honestly call such devices 'rented'? It is perfectly understandable why you can't install the music system of your choice on a rented car. Not quite understandable if you bought that car.
What you say about 'google employees threatened with arrest' is pure bullshit. On the voting app was removed from the Google Play, but everyone who were interested (me included) installed that app directly. No Google employees were arrested for that.
If Apple allowed the same functionality, nothing would happen to their employees, and their users would benefit. I know many Apple users who were quite outraged with Apple's actions, but were forced to comply.
So YOU are bargaining on behalf of Putin, to keep the user-hostile Apple policy that is so beneficial to him.
> The decisions came after Russian authorities, who claim the app is illegal, threatened to prosecute local employees of Apple and Google — a sharp escalation in the Kremlin’s campaign to rein in the country’s largely uncensored internet. A person familiar with Google’s decision said the authorities had named specific individuals who would face prosecution, prompting it to remove the app.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/world/europe/russia-naval...
Source: I'm Russian and i know pretty much about these things. I was detained at protests against Putin and the service I run is blocked in Russia.
And you failed to address the fact that Android users could use the app just fine via direct install, and NO Google employees were arrested. But no iOS users could use the app, and that is the result of Apple pathetic policy to control and restrict devices after selling them.
and since your breaking the law installing a illegal app why not just jail break the iphone for side loads
Why? Why should corporates have more rights than the consumers who pay for the device and rightly own it? It's not a choice when there is no choice at all in the first place!
If an iOS device doesn't support the software they want to run, why would they buy an iPhone? Would you also complain that you can't run Microsoft Word on a PS5?
It's a very valid statement, yet you make it sound like sarcasm.
Consumer can makes choice by choosing platform after all (even niche Android distributions if you are after freedom). Ofcourse apple may be too tight by requiring to even identify test devices when you develop apps and no option to install .apk like on Android.
Until the apple lifts off these restrictions, users of iOS devices can not be considered device owners: they are merely renting it from a true owner (Apple), who decides which apps are allowed to run on these devices.
If the OS is hackable - and they always are, without strong security - all kinds of nasty things become possible.
I do think devs should get a bit more freedom on iOS for testing, but the consumer side is fine as it is. I remember the virus wars of late 90s and early 2000s when you couldn't do anything on a Windows PC without worrying that it was going to be hacked - and most were.
There were email vectors, web vectors, PDF vectors, Office macro vectors, banner ad vectors, even antivirus software vectors. It was a complete shit show.
The hacking back then was relatively harmless. But now that people run their entire lives from these devices, the modern equivalent would be an economic disaster.
Sandboxing is a technological problem, while app store monopolies are a social problem, those two problems must be separated from each other first before they can be fixed effectively.
Fine as it is? Show me how to launch Signal app on an iPhone sold in China?
> It's a very valid statement
No. Perhaps it would be a valid statement if Apple and Google were held accountable for failing to protect the consumer here.
I don't understand, you just tap an APK file and hit "install". Is that really different? You need to click a single button to allow the file explorer/browser app to show the install popups, but that's it. Just don't buy an iPhone if you want control over your phone.
If you want to get fancier, get an alternative store like F-Droid or one of its competitors. XDA-Developers once had its own app store built right into their forum app.
The reality is that Apple has been badmouthing installing software as "sideloading" and convinced their customer base that if software doesn't come from their store, it's obviously evil and malicious. Google has ridden the app store wave, not saying much but certainly not speaking out against Apple.
Now they've managed to condition users that installing apps using alternative methods is either bad or complicated, so the end user doesn't want to do it. That's a problem between you and your end user, and I don't think there's a good solution for that.
I certainly don't think Android should remove the security popup for installing downloaded APK files because malicious ads would start smuggling apps onto your phone like crazy. The button "allow this app to install other apps" is fine to me, as is the popup that says "are you sure you want to install <x>".
A legal battle around securing the rights of ownership is severely needed in the 21st century, the same way the creation of the EPA and workers rights legislation were needed in the 20th.
Security is a tradeoff between freedom/convenience and safety. This is true outside of desktop OS as well.
The reason there is a trend to having less rights and more security on the desktop is because of the rising cost of getting hacked. So unless you have a better solution, organizations and consumers will all advocate for more security and less freedom.
To paint an example, as a default an a process should only have access to its own memory, and maybe a sandboxed directory in the filesystem. If the process wants to access the network, or access other directories, it should ask me as the user permission before it can do so.
You could then imagine extending this through a federated trust model. I.e. if I as a user don't want to bother with granting fine grained permissions each time, I could give blanket trust to all applications verified by a given source. This could be for instance a 3rd party app store, or something like a package manager, which I trust to vet the applications which it hosts.
There are always going to be challenges with security, but the solution cannot be that 3 corporations get to unilaterally decide which code is allowed to be executed.
On the other hand Apple and Google created mobile, as more than the built-in platform.
Before they arrived and nuked the whole scene getting third party software was browsing shifty sites for weird archives (leaving your CC details everywhere to pay for it) you’d then try to decompress on the phone, possibly sideloaded from a computer connection, and definitely never updated.
The experience for both installing and removing software was ridiculously dreadful and the waste of time immense.
The pre-appstore landscape was an experience in the sense of getting mauled by a bear being an experience.
You could argue Apple just followed the "canned phone" approach but, later, decided to allow 3rd parties in as a marketing way to grow/differentiate the iPhone ecosystem.
I don't fault early-Apple in this regard.
Apple, and later Google when Android got better (who remembers the pre 1.0 releases? They weren't great) changed the face of mobile, but they didn't invent smartphones, or the idea of a third party app ecosystem. They made it much better, but Apple didn't even originally support third party apps. Steve Jobs thought that everyone who wanted other types of apps would just use web apps, but that hasn't really happened due to a number of factors (partly OS manufacturers locking down which APIs are available, although I haven't worked on that side of development for a few years so it might have changed).
edit: I forgot about Symbian. I worked in the US and it wasn't really that common, at least I never talked with a customer that used it.
There were lots on nokia, in part by necessity given how dreary S60 was (I remember having to install third party software in order to have an alarm, as well as opera mini because the built-in browser was unusable on edge).
But even “legit sites” looked like warez, not just because it was 2005 but also because there was basically no ecosystem so this was mostly lone devs doing their thing on the sly, and of course we had little graphical taste (as demonstrated by wielding nokias). And the install / update experience as I noted above was quite awful.
A naive explanation is because AT&T (the iPhone's first carrier).
Or rather more broadly, mobiles use the carrier's network and carriers did not want a repeat of demon-dialing, rampant computer viruses (etc.) taking down their network.