California bans the sale of all small off-road internal combustion engines
heartlanddailynews.com
heartlanddailynews.com
Gasoline-powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers to be banned under new California law - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28830968 - Oct 2021 (25 comments)
California moves toward ban on gas lawnmowers and leaf blowers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28819696 - Oct 2021 (147 comments)
As well intentioned as this law change is it will only make a hard job even harder. Battery cost, battery swaps and reparability, battery theft, arguing with locals who still will still yell at him for being "too loud".... it's just not going to happen or be worth it. He will continue to buy tools from places with lower sales tax and there is no possible way you can argue that an electric trencher or compactor is going to work for more than a couple hours a day without a repeated battery swaps. Have you even seen how large the properties are in Woodside, Atherton, Portola Valley, Palo Alto, and Cupertino? Those kinds of jobs are impossible with electric tools. Sorry, not sorry.
This sounds like a problem for the rich that (just as you described) they can pay to make go away.
For example: For a number of years Palo Alto has had a law about gas leaf blowers (Ordinance No. 4634, I think). The "easy" way around it is to use an electric leaf blower. Where do you plug in an electric leaf blower in Palo Alto? Probably the same place as where the public trash can is: Nowhere. You've got to use the customer's house. Not every customer has an outdoor socket. Try explaining that to a customer: The city you live in voted to 1) Make me plug in my outdoor tool inside your house. 2) Use your electricity instead of my gas. 3) Make the job take longer. Helping a customer "understand" why they're going to see an extra dollar on their electricity bill and inconvenience every 2-4 weeks is harder than you'd think. The people of Palo Alto don't like being told they're wrong or what they have chosen costs more money. I have seen with my own eyes people forego service because of a $10 monthly increase after multiple of great service.
Long story short: People like to vote against themselves. People are not reasonable.
How many batteries would it take to run your toy lawnmower for 10 hours? How much would those batteries weigh? How much would thos batteries cost? How long would it take to charge them all? Now multiply all that by about 10 or more for an ordinary bog standard small landscaping crew with several similar peices of equipment and several significantly larger than a homeowners toy mower. Now multiply that by all the landscaping crews. and the simple weight of all the dedicated battery trucks on the roads would be significant let alone the process of manufacturing them.
We do need to go as electric as possible but we don't actually posess the storage technology to do it yet. Swapping out a battery still doesn't come close to refilling a tank.
The functionality is not remotely equivalent yet.
Treating fantasy land as reality instead of a goal does not help us get to the goal. It just gives totally legitimate ammo to anyone who wants to say "Wow the libs are so stupid". Congratulations on that. Thanks for helping.
Not really.
(One is a private college, one is a religious institution, I don't really feel bad about them being pushed to be better neighbors as they manage their leaves)
Or maybe take it up with the Bigleaf Maples clogging up the storm drain front of your house causing water to slowly creep up your poorly graded property on Middlefield Rd.
Or maybe the pine needles that turn brown and look like garbage on your lawn.
A lot of leaves suck to deal with. Blowing is the what the property owners want.
If he wants to keep using them he should at the least be requiring his employees to wear high quality gas masks and hearing protection.
Otherwise, the health effects are comparable to mandating all of his employees take up smoking cigarettes while on the job.
If individual home owners want to take a risk with their lives while doing occasional lawn care that is one thing, but this kind of unnecessary occupational hazard should be strictly banned, and should open employers to criminal/financial liability.
But it is certainly a choice not to provide essential safety gear (in this case, high quality respirators and hearing protection) to employees who are doing dangerous work. These 2-stroke motors are particularly difficult to guard the ears against, because they make very loud low-frequency sounds.
The same kind of argument you are making here (via passive aggressive insults rather than direct statement, I might add) could justify pretty much any occupational health hazard. Thankfully regulators and the voting public have over the years regulated some of the worst abuses out of workplaces. Hopefully soon gas-powered leaf blowers will be among those in the dustbin of history.
Why is that?
Yes, absolutely.
If we have any hope of reducing our impact on the planet, some parts of our lives are going to get less convenient / more expensive / harder / more time consuming. At least in the short term, switching away from burning dinosaur oil will be a little painful.
Our grandchildren will appreciate that we tried, rather than sitting around saying "it's too hard!"
1. Doing good is hard.
2. This is hard.
3. Therefore it is good.
In this case there’s some carbon and a relative lot of pollution going on.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/emissions-test-...
I don't have a big yard, but the Ego stuff handles it well. My only gripe is in the fall (New England, so lots of leaves) I only really get 15-20 mins of runtime on the blower. Having said that, I have several other batteries including the big one for the mower so by cycling through them I can get the cleanup done.
I think that for a landscaping company, it'd be tough to go (battery) electric, at least without having a big library of batteries. Doable, but probably takes some commitment to the environment vs profit.
Electric weedwhacker (I'm assured these don't exist on the West Coast, but they do have an alternative called the "weedeater") barely has any strength behind it.
Will it knock down some tall spots in the hard spots of a non-artificially-planned backyard? Yes.
Will it be quick? No.
Can you edge with it? I've tried, but the lack of power means the cut is never clean.
Same with the leafblowers.
Gasoline-powered? That side-walk and driveway are free of leaves in 5 minutes tops.
Electric? I'm slowly walking around like a bozo for a good 15-20 minutes just to get the bigger parts. It's almost impossible to get all the nooks and crannies with the hand-blower.
Same with the trimmers.
Hell. Those small Maruyama trimmers are all you need. Doesn't matter if you need a longer reach: a ladder and one-handing it always does the trick. Admittedly, they're also used as pruners (and they're damn good at it).
I've tried those pole-trimmers, and the lack of power was palpable. You can barely even cut through Rhododendron without slamming that thing into the branches.
Electric? Forget about it. They barely cut through my regular-variety hedge.
Perhaps the "high-powered" stuff has spoiled me forever -- and I do miss them dearly. What I don't miss is my hands going numb, and a persistent ringing in my ears.
I've also grown to be a fan of the "old" New England property landscapes and yards. The ones on the West Coast always seemed so artificial.
What it takes is government regulation.
What's the point of comparing small outdoor engines to things that don't emit hydrocarbons?
The Results During the FTP 75 test, exhaust gas from the vehicle's tailpipe is captured and analyzed by laboratory-grade equipment that's so expensive it makes the Kentucky Derby look like the Pinewood Derby. This lab equipment measures all kinds of compounds coming out of the tailpipe but the three we will focus on are those with which EPA and CARB are primarily concerned, namely, non-methane hydrocarbons (NMHC), oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and carbon monoxide (CO).
(then there's a table listing the results...)
If you add a catalytic converter etc. you could cut most of it. But then the engine would be much bulkier and more expensive.
I can't decide if that's a triple negative or a quadruple negative.
Also note your ride on mower (and other small IC things) don't have catalytic converters or anything at all to manage emissions, so the stuff coming out the exhaust is multiple orders of magnitudes worse - especially for the user who is standing right there breathing it in.
It isn't just about gallons consumed per hour, it's about what comes out the exhaust.
The car should also have a more efficient combustion, due to all the electronics, along with a catalytic converter to meet the emission requirements.
Note they talk about hydrocarbon emissions, not just CO2.
The cheap two cycle engine does exhaust and injection in the same cycle. Inevitably a large fraction of the injected fuel is also exhausted. How that tired back to green house gases I'm not totally sure, but it's certainly very bad for your lung health to breathe it!
1) The lubricating oil is mixed into the fuel and burned in the combustion cycle. The combustion products of this oil are not clean.
2) They combine exhaust and intake into a single "stroke", i.e. the downstroke after ignition, which can result in unburnt aerosolized fuel escaping with the exhaust.
Additionally, fuel injection systems can typically achieve better emissions than carburetors can. AFAIK small two-strokes (and some four-strokes like small outboard motors, etc.) are largely the last bastion of carburetors in engines manufactured today.
So using a leaf-blower for 30 mins once a week for 12 weeks has the same emissions as driving a extremely inefficient truck for 45k miles?
To this day, I don't understand why cities or neighborhoods don't at least limit the days they can be used. Everywhere I've lived, someone in earshot is mowing or blowing every...single...day.
Seems to me it's outside your door/sidewalk it's still a lot of noise
Personally, I'd advocate a rake.
Making them illegal didn't seem to help in LA where the gardeners still defiantly use the gas powered blowers with zero repercussions. Hopefully you'll have better success outlawing them in your community.
That particular model of leaf blower with the backpack is fairly powerful, and the reviewer notes it pushes more air than the gas powered one he is using. However, a number of comments mention that the gas powered blower is much more powerful and that the reviewer is biased, which may be apparent from his early praise for the electric model.
The big issue is that the electric blower's runtime is limited. He gets 22 minutes out of a full battery using it "normally", which takes 1 hour 40 minutes to charge on the standard charger, and 42 minutes on the fast charger. He concludes that electric is better in every way for homeowners, and there's no reason to go back to gas unless you are a commercial user (presumably due to the battery limitations).
Reminds me, couple of years ago I tried estimating what it would take to run a steamer to kill weeds. Felt like you could do it off a 240VAC 30amp circuit but not a 120V 15/20 amp one. Trouble while more modern houses have exterior outlets, none have 240V. Then again, EV chargers can deliver that.
Maybe the solution for gardeners is run power of an electric truck like the new Ford one.
I'm sure the small gardening contractors will raise the issue of cost, but the large landscaping companies should have no excuse.
My real concern is that they will only be able to ship a limited run, which will get snapped up by the early adopters, that is the truck enthusiasts and EV fans who have enough disposable income and the patience to just get in line and wait.
Where I live you can't really leaf-blow anyway, as the leaves are almost always wet and heavy.
Gas blowers make light work of heavy, wet leaves. It’s why the landscapers use them rather than electrics.
The electric ones might be slightly quieter (due to having less power), but then the trade off is running for longer because they have less power.
Electric leaf blowers average 65db, 4 strokes are 70-80db, while 2 strokes average 90db. Where 10db is roughly double the "noise" I think this qualifies for "significantly"
It is not at all surprising that it’s much quieter as a result of putting ~40% of the energy into the stream of air.
You mean the sound per cfm isn't significant.
(source: I switched to Ego battery electric yard equipment from gas powered ones a few years ago).
The blowers I’d encourage you to look up the specs and make sure your quiet electric has the power your loud gas one had before finalizing your conclusion on sound output per air output. I doubt it has even half the power (unless your gas blower was a particularly small four-stroke).
I bought two plug-in blowers (both were bad jokes, being limited to 1.4kW of input power by the outlet) before buying a gas blower. I’ve since tried two battery blowers of friends and one of those was okay but still noticeably slower and less powerful than my gas blower (the other was similar to the plug-ins: suitable for dry leaves on smooth concrete).
I’m not at all opposed to electric tools (especially since small seasonal gas engines are a pain to keep running well); in fact I prefer them. But I haven’t found a blower that’s competitive in power and I’ve got maple seeds to move from 3” bluegrass in the wet New England fall and I’ve not found an electric that can do it.
However, the battery life isn't great, you get maybe 15 mins on a charge of those smaller 2ah batteries (but I have several along with a bigger 4ah mower battery). Perfectly fine for my yard, but not practical for a landscaper.
Yes, of course people will always look for ways around a law.. but if even 50% can't be bothered to go around it, that will be an enormous reduction in emissions.
"To equal the hydrocarbon emissions of about a half-hour of yard work with this two-stroke leaf blower, you'd have to drive a Ford Raptor for 3,887 miles, or the distance from Northern Texas to Anchorage, Alaska"
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/emissions-test-...
This probably doesn't effect used /existing stock either.
My landscaper recently told me the gas ones are still far more effective. I assume he would know? They go from site to site every day, I’m guessing they don’t have time to charge and want the best tool for their job as all of us do.
You’re talking changing a hour job into potentially longer from battery swaps and asking for plugs, etc.
And in general the gas ones are cheaper but that is getting closer.
Commercial equipment is a tough deal though, you can’t get enough amps on a 300 ft extension cord for a commercial-quality powered motor, which makes me wonder if this legislation could push foreword innovation to, maybe, create higher-grade plug in equipment that either utilizes a flywheel to increase cutting power at the expense of torque, or uses a combo battery and cord to temporarily boost power as needed.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
These "I hate California" digs are cartoonish by now (and boring).
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Instit...
...if that was truly the case, then wouldn't battery powered equipment have won the market already?
The fact of the matter is I have battery powered lawn equipment. It barely can handle my 1/4 acre yard before giving out. Recharging the batteries takes hours, and the batteries love to flake out and refuse to charge.
If I was a lawn care company, I'd be livid.
But never buy a pack - always wait for a sale or deal and get the batteries free with tool (or tool free with batteries).
I agree. I don't think I've ever paid full price buying a battery by itself. I just can't stomach the terrible value. I watch for a sale and pick up a new tool with the battery I want. I've got a few relatively obscure tools that way that I'd probably not bother purchasing otherwise.
Leaving them on the charger or letting them “rest” for a day or two can also bring them back.
I'm all for picking the tools that work best for your situation. But don't say, "And I hereby decree that everyone will now use this technology."
That's always the risk of arguing that it's in people's interests to already be doing something!
I've hesitated to buy battery powered lawn equipment because consumer reviews seem to suggest the batteries last for 4 or 5 seasons, then go bad. The batteries cost a significant fraction of what the whole system costs, so you end up buying a new lawn gadget and throwing away the entire old one (bad battery and all).
I think the law is short-sighted.
If it's about pollution, the *use* of highly polluting things should be made illegal, including many cars and SUVs.
If it's about noise, ban the *use* of noisy things, including leaf blowers, motorbikes and so on.
How comes existing ICE vehicles get a pass?
This really seems like just another step, with likely more to follow.
guess what, ya don't need a goddamned cut grass lawn.
we are putting in ponds and forest gardens starting next year. no more yard.
downvote away, but these are exactly the kind of austerity measures required to get used to (and MUCH MUCH more) in order to realistically get things on track.