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Comment by blibble | Hacker News Reader

user friendly?

can't remember the last time my Linux machine:

    - force rebooted over my explict objection, then spent 30 minutes installing updates
    - showed me ads from the notification tray
    - showed me ads on the start menu
    - showed me ads on the lock screen
    - showed me ads in the file manager
    - showed me ads when I attempt to change the default browser
    - installed MS teams
    - sent mountains of telemetry back to base (which can't be disabled)

the standards of 2000 would consider Windows 11 to be adware/spyware

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> the standards of 2000 would consider Windows 11 to be adware/spyware

Moving the goalposts.

> force rebooted over my explict objection

Then that's a bug. Is Linux bug-free?

I daily Linux but essentially none of those things in Windows harm user friendliness. Ignore the junk, does the system work? Your grandparents don't care if the start menu shows a recommendation. It has a familiar start menu, desktop icons, Internet browser, backwards compatibility, automatic driver install/update, etc.

Imagine showing someone unfamiliar with Linux how to "install" an application that is not in the package manager? Forget it.

Linux is only user friendly if you are already an expert.

MY GF had no problem installing flatpaks (applications that are not in the package manager) from Gnome-software.

What if there is no flatpak available? Something like Android Studio where you untar, move to where you want, add to path, etc?

You might have a point though. These things are starting to get niche.

Android studio is available via snap. You have a point: I had to install a plugin so gnome-software could see apps from flathub.

But considering android-studio is used mainly by developers, I don't think installing is can be considered hard by the specific public.

Anything programming-related doesn't matter to the general public. The truth is, if you can't figure out how to install X programming tool you're going to have a hard time with any programming.

Common OS use cases are: installing Chrome, installing Steam, YouTube/Netflix and things, installing software that does basic things most people need (word processor, calculator, etc...), connecting peripherals and thumb drives, etc... And that's all super easy on Linux.

Even programming is easy on Linux if you accept that you need a terminal at some point. Hence why MS has WSL.

How is that different from any "portable" app on windows?

Windows 11 barely a few weeks old and has some updates. Not sure why force reboot is a concern. The notification try gets a few notifications that are dumb, i'll admit, but my MacOS does the same -telling me to use their browser and forcing me at every bend to use an icloud account.

Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..

Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more.

Ads in file manger? wut?

Ads when you change default browser? wut?

INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service (consume os's that is)

Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device.

> rage fest

Not hardly.

All of your 'wuts' are easily verifiable via a cursory search. There are ads for various MS services all over Windows.

https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo...

https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/08/windows-10-turn-off-ads-in...

The problem is that less tech savvy people wont know how to turn this off. They dont need to be advertised inside a product they _bought_. Should be opt-in, not out.

MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate.

Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out.

> MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate.

In all fairness, iMessage probably counts. Not that I consider "but Apple also does bad things!" to be a defense.

For Linux, many GNOME-based distros shipped with Pidgin (an open source communication program) well-integrated with the desktop environment, really early on compared to other OS's. I'm hesitant to say "Linux did it first", but it was definitely an early adopter.

That said, it's hard to compare the two given Pidgin is a general purpose communication tool without vendor lock-in (e.g. it's also an IRC client, has peer-to-peer mode, etc), and most Linux installers let you opt-out of these sorts of bundled software.

I think the real issue is some might find MS Teams to be obnoxious software (I suppose, I barely have used it)

Yeah, I was really confused by this, since I very clearly recall seeing ads on fresh Windows computers, along with guides etc on how to disable them.

I know back when I used Windows I had an entire routine to disable all the annoying stuff, so I suspect they disabled all the annoying stuff and totally forgot.

I really don't get the need to "defend" Windows, however. It's an OS being sold by a large, for-profit company, that has pros and cons like any other OS. No need to fight MS's fights for them... and given it's 75% desktop marketshare (and like ~95% for gaming), I think they are doing pretty dang well by themselves.

This topic is about Windows 11...

If you buy a signature windows 11 device (surface) - you get all the Microsoft ecosystem because that's probably why/what you're buying into...

but it certainly isn't full of ads and my "wuts" are there because i'm calling out the bs :)

> Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out.

To be fair, if you asked people if they wanted garbage they probably wouldn't say yes. You only get these acceptance of these sorts of impositions when there is no other alternative (or people aren't aware there even is an alternative).

Thats not fairness, thats a known dark pattern being pushed on people.

> but my MacOS does the same

MacOS also sucking is not a defense of Windows, especially when Linux distros do better.

> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..

> Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more.

I guess it's nice that you haven't seen ads and don't mind them when you do see them, but that doesn't make it okay.

> Ads in file manger? wut?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedri...

> Ads when you change default browser? wut?

https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-recommend-edge-user...

> Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device.

It can be reduced, possibly stopped, by adding third-party tools. That you need extra tools is unacceptable. And again, Apple and Google also doing bad stuff is very much not an excuse.

I'm only comparing commercial os's here, there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates and scheduled reboots and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on..

You can remove all the crap and make it what you want.

> I'm only comparing commercial os's here,

Excellent, then RHEL, SUSE, and Ubuntu should have a very good showing. Unless you mean that you're just looking at Windows and MacOS, in which case yeah you're going to have a bad time.

> there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates [...]and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for

I suppose that's true, although I find them a lot less annoying.

> and scheduled reboots

Now you've lost me; what Linux distros automatically reboot in their default configuration? (I know you can make unattended-upgrades do that, but you have to go out of your way to set that up)

> that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically

I think that's moving the goalposts? Was default bookmarks brought up yet?

> and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on..

I'm only aware of that happening at the browser layer, not the OS layer? Indeed much of why I like Linux distros is that when I change a setting it stays changed. Actually, what "sponsored crap" is even coming from the OS vendor in a Linux distro?

> MacOS also sucking is not a defense of Windows, especially when Linux distros do better.

It's not a defense of Windows but it is noteworthy when every one of these threads highlights Windows every time, without mentioning Apple's own "please use Safari" notification.

>> Ads in file manger? wut?

> https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedri...

That's from 2017 and hasn't appeared for me, well, ever. Normally I wouldn't consider "works on my machine" to be a valid reply but it's been 4 years.

> Not sure why force reboot is a concern.

Are you serious? The user could have been doing anything when they rebooted, and there's no valid excuse to forcibly install updates when the user explicitly tells you not to.

> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..

Yes, there are actually ads in the start menu. Absolutely worth a "rage fest" when it's a desktop operating system on hardware that you own.

> Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such...

Well, they're there. Your computer is not other peoples' computers. If someone says that they saw ads in their lock screen - your personal experience has no bearing on that.

> INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service

Not an excuse.

> elemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this

That work imperfectly and whose changes are often reverted "magically".

This is an extremely consumer-hostile and ignorant comment.

I've been running Windows 11 since the public preview started and not once on any of the machines I'm responsible for has it rebooted without telling you it will be rebooting or needs to restart. During the preview, you accepted the terms that they did weekly and sometimes biweekly releases that required reboots (because they were often flighting tests of improving the process) - and since release its just been patch tuesday updates.

There are no ads in start menu.

There are no ads in lock screen

MS Teams is just like google hangouts/chat or imessage - you can disable it if you wish but on modern OS's - they tend to favor including communications apps.

Telemtry changes done via GPO have only been reverted by mistake and the policy would be re-applied if managed by a policy management system, but you can also block telemetry with NextDNS, Pi Holes and other edge network stuff if it really offens you.

This is not consumer hostile. Windows 11 is a HUGE improvement for consumers. They get Windows, They Get Linux (WSL) - They're getting Android App store in beta now. They get an OS that runs on commodity hardware, that gets updated, stays current and patched. That patching typically happens on patch tuesdays - which is cyclic and predictable. It's been that way unless there is a major security patch that is an exception in which case it is best to apply it and deal with the reboots.

None of which are consumer-hostile.

The consumer enjoys that on a windows device they can use multiple devices and have a shared experience. That is the same demand they enjoy in Android and the same demand they enjoy in MacOS - which is why i referenced those vs say a vanilla dry linux that doesn't do that by default.

"commodity hardware" is a bit of a stretch there, don't you think

But it can be run on commodity hardware, despite the fanfare over Windows 11's CPU & TPM requirements, every PC since 2017 answers that spec and every x86 PC off the shelf can run it. In that sense, it runs on commodity hardware.

Yeah well, I don't call "every PC since 2017" a commodity hardware, unless I don't understand your answer. I am running my laptop since 2016 and my brother has desktop PC since 2012. The fanfare will definitely induce more waste than necessary.

I would consider it commodity hardware because it's what's been available now and for 4 years: it's widely-available, at a wide price range, and basically what's available generally. You can't not buy a PC that doesn't match these specs.

I guess the difference is that I consider "commodity hardware" to be what's widely available off-the-shelf, not what's currently in use across everyone.

But either way this is just Windows 11 compatibility, Windows 10 is still maintained and getting feature updates, e.g.: 21H2 should be offered to incompatible hardware soon. I also bet 11's minimum requirements will be lowered in the future to at least 2016. (Having owned a 2012 i5 before this one I would not recommend sticking with it forever and ever, 2018's Spectre+Meltdown mitigations made it much worse)

Most certainly. You can go to best buy and buy a Ryzen 2600 (not even latest gen) or splurge on a 3600 (more in stock) or get a 5600 (yeet its fast on win11), a B450 motherboard (few years old) some DDR memory, an SSD or NVME and if you're lucky enough to have a GPU or find one buy a PC on COTS parts that will install Windows 11, run fast and pass all of its requirements and it won't cost that much - especially if you price compare to other markets or buy used and upgrade as needed. Oh, and the fact you can replace your motherboard/CPU and buy Windows 11 and carry forward other hardware you have is icing on the cake

> Telemtry changes done via GPO have only been reverted by mistake

ah yes, like Edge keeps being reset as the default browser by "mistake"

the GPO even says that the telemetry cannot be disabled on non enterprise versions

what do you mean "not sure why force reboot is a concern"? It is one of the worst thing ever. I keep each one of my virtual desktops with various projects and related ides/documentation on my linux laptop and I always keep it in standby (indeed right now htop tells me I have this laptop up since 136days). On windows it would randomly and terribly often reboot, even when asleep, because it seems in 2021 an os still need to fully reboot for minor patches WHEN IT wants to.

Microsoft patches on the second Tuesday of every month.

It's been that way for years.

If you are getting forced reboots with that much frequency, it's not because of Microsoft.

Microsoft just keep asking until it forces them or put them at "night hours" or while in standby in my bag so I can't refuse anymore because I am not even awake or conscious of what is happening. I want to be in control of the reboots of my own pc, can I? Is it so absurd to pretend it?

It is already ridiculous that I even have to forcefully install updates even if I don't want to, and I won't accept the "yeah but unless they do this way no one is gonna install updates".

Of course no one is... they ask for a reboot. Maybe just do something as simple as managing your updates so that the reboot is not needed? I never rebooted any of my linux boxes after an update since 2010 and never had a single problem because of it.

Once a month you get asked to patch if you're using your computer during non active hours. Otherwise, it will reboot on its own during inactive hours. Or you know, if its the second tuesday of the month, when you go on lunch or go grab a snack, you can click update and restart - in Windows 11 the updates are usually slipstreamed and happen quickly.

Rebooting once a month isn't a problem for anyone I know. My phones typically get 3+ major updates a year and a monthly update and reboots itself at night.

> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..

Don't reduce this to just apps in start menu. For some reason, some of these apps are "special" and they are reinstalling just seconds after after the user uninstalled them. That is rightfully infuriating and contributes to the user perception that windows is working against them.

User perception? The users are perceptive, then, because in this behavior, Windows absolutely is working against them.

It might be not precisely formulated using English; I'm not a native speaker, so forgive me.

Well, I am a native speaker, and I'm doing worse than you are. I just now realized that my post could come across as criticizing your word choice. I did not mean to do so. I meant to be emphatically agreeing with you.

Right click, remove/uninstall.

I do that when i get a new macbook on the dock. I do that when i Get a new iphone or ipad or a Chromebook or an android device.

I do that even when I boot up Rhel/Centos/Fedora/Rocky/Mint/Ubuntu

>force rebooted over my explict objection, then spent 30 minutes installing updates >showed me ads from the notification tray >showed me ads on the start menu >showed me ads on the lock screen >showed me ads in the file manager

These can be disabled.

>installed MS teams

Not sure about this? I had to install MS Teams for an interview a few months ago and tbh it was a bit of a pita.

>sent mountains of telemetry back to base (which can't be disabled)

It can be disabled. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/perman...

> Not sure about this? I had to install MS Teams for an interview a few months ago and tbh it was a bit of a pita.

The Teams shipped with Windows 11 can be used with personal accounts only; not with work or school accounts. So if a common user tries to use it for their job, they are going to be left wondering, why it doesn't work, when they have it already installed.

So, the one that replaces Skype, not the one that replaces Lync.

Ads in the file manager? Hah what?

What are the ads in the start menu?

Maybe the standards of 2000 would. That’s pretty irrelevant. 2000 was…2000. This over the topness of calling Windows adware is another thing that one vocal part of HN and similar areas on the web are prone to do. Like acting like Facebook is some malevolent apocalyptic evil.

Windows11 doesn't have candy crush launchers/installers preinstalled in the start menu, I do have some links to Office programs I haven't installed but I don't find them bad

it's still an ad even if you don't mind it

Yet despite all those spyware / adware warnings and stories from the HN hivemind, the reality is the end users do not care enough to migrate and leave for something even less user friendly like a Linux distro and they still keep on using Windows.

Why is that?

Because people get used to what they used first. Since windows got a good lead in early 90's, network effects and inertia made it king on the desktop for so long.

Had microsoft been able to release real smartphones with windows phone earlier, we'd be probably seeing a very different mobile world than what we see today. I quickly tried windows phone when they were released, they didn't seem worse or slower or less capable (except for fewer apps) than androids or iphones of the time.

I think Ubuntu shipped with some Amazon ads not too long ago.

And when they got criticised for it, they removed them instead of keeping them.

Please don't give Ubuntu a list of things to add

It stays running for weeks at a time, suspends/wakes perfectly, doesn't bug me with ads or forced updates and all my peripherals work?

I'll never understand what people do with Linux to have all the problems they do. I've put it on computers of tech-illiterates and they seem to have less issues than HN members...

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