can't remember the last time my Linux machine:
- force rebooted over my explict objection, then spent 30 minutes installing updates
- showed me ads from the notification tray
- showed me ads on the start menu
- showed me ads on the lock screen
- showed me ads in the file manager
- showed me ads when I attempt to change the default browser
- installed MS teams
- sent mountains of telemetry back to base (which can't be disabled)
Moving the goalposts.
> force rebooted over my explict objection
Then that's a bug. Is Linux bug-free?
I daily Linux but essentially none of those things in Windows harm user friendliness. Ignore the junk, does the system work? Your grandparents don't care if the start menu shows a recommendation. It has a familiar start menu, desktop icons, Internet browser, backwards compatibility, automatic driver install/update, etc.
Imagine showing someone unfamiliar with Linux how to "install" an application that is not in the package manager? Forget it.
Linux is only user friendly if you are already an expert.
You might have a point though. These things are starting to get niche.
Common OS use cases are: installing Chrome, installing Steam, YouTube/Netflix and things, installing software that does basic things most people need (word processor, calculator, etc...), connecting peripherals and thumb drives, etc... And that's all super easy on Linux.
Even programming is easy on Linux if you accept that you need a terminal at some point. Hence why MS has WSL.
But considering android-studio is used mainly by developers, I don't think installing is can be considered hard by the specific public.
Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..
Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more.
Ads in file manger? wut?
Ads when you change default browser? wut?
INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service (consume os's that is)
Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device.
MacOS also sucking is not a defense of Windows, especially when Linux distros do better.
> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..
> Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more.
I guess it's nice that you haven't seen ads and don't mind them when you do see them, but that doesn't make it okay.
> Ads in file manger? wut?
https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedri...
> Ads when you change default browser? wut?
https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-recommend-edge-user...
> Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device.
It can be reduced, possibly stopped, by adding third-party tools. That you need extra tools is unacceptable. And again, Apple and Google also doing bad stuff is very much not an excuse.
It's not a defense of Windows but it is noteworthy when every one of these threads highlights Windows every time, without mentioning Apple's own "please use Safari" notification.
>> Ads in file manger? wut?
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedri...
That's from 2017 and hasn't appeared for me, well, ever. Normally I wouldn't consider "works on my machine" to be a valid reply but it's been 4 years.
You can remove all the crap and make it what you want.
Excellent, then RHEL, SUSE, and Ubuntu should have a very good showing. Unless you mean that you're just looking at Windows and MacOS, in which case yeah you're going to have a bad time.
> there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates [...]and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for
I suppose that's true, although I find them a lot less annoying.
> and scheduled reboots
Now you've lost me; what Linux distros automatically reboot in their default configuration? (I know you can make unattended-upgrades do that, but you have to go out of your way to set that up)
> that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically
I think that's moving the goalposts? Was default bookmarks brought up yet?
> and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on..
I'm only aware of that happening at the browser layer, not the OS layer? Indeed much of why I like Linux distros is that when I change a setting it stays changed. Actually, what "sponsored crap" is even coming from the OS vendor in a Linux distro?
Are you serious? The user could have been doing anything when they rebooted, and there's no valid excuse to forcibly install updates when the user explicitly tells you not to.
> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah..
Yes, there are actually ads in the start menu. Absolutely worth a "rage fest" when it's a desktop operating system on hardware that you own.
> Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such...
Well, they're there. Your computer is not other peoples' computers. If someone says that they saw ads in their lock screen - your personal experience has no bearing on that.
> INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service
Not an excuse.
> elemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this
That work imperfectly and whose changes are often reverted "magically".
This is an extremely consumer-hostile and ignorant comment.
There are no ads in start menu.
There are no ads in lock screen
MS Teams is just like google hangouts/chat or imessage - you can disable it if you wish but on modern OS's - they tend to favor including communications apps.
Telemtry changes done via GPO have only been reverted by mistake and the policy would be re-applied if managed by a policy management system, but you can also block telemetry with NextDNS, Pi Holes and other edge network stuff if it really offens you.
This is not consumer hostile. Windows 11 is a HUGE improvement for consumers. They get Windows, They Get Linux (WSL) - They're getting Android App store in beta now. They get an OS that runs on commodity hardware, that gets updated, stays current and patched. That patching typically happens on patch tuesdays - which is cyclic and predictable. It's been that way unless there is a major security patch that is an exception in which case it is best to apply it and deal with the reboots.
None of which are consumer-hostile.
The consumer enjoys that on a windows device they can use multiple devices and have a shared experience. That is the same demand they enjoy in Android and the same demand they enjoy in MacOS - which is why i referenced those vs say a vanilla dry linux that doesn't do that by default.
I guess the difference is that I consider "commodity hardware" to be what's widely available off-the-shelf, not what's currently in use across everyone.
But either way this is just Windows 11 compatibility, Windows 10 is still maintained and getting feature updates, e.g.: 21H2 should be offered to incompatible hardware soon. I also bet 11's minimum requirements will be lowered in the future to at least 2016. (Having owned a 2012 i5 before this one I would not recommend sticking with it forever and ever, 2018's Spectre+Meltdown mitigations made it much worse)
ah yes, like Edge keeps being reset as the default browser by "mistake"
the GPO even says that the telemetry cannot be disabled on non enterprise versions
Not hardly.
All of your 'wuts' are easily verifiable via a cursory search. There are ads for various MS services all over Windows.
https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo...
https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/08/windows-10-turn-off-ads-in...
The problem is that less tech savvy people wont know how to turn this off. They dont need to be advertised inside a product they _bought_. Should be opt-in, not out.
MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate.
Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out.
I know back when I used Windows I had an entire routine to disable all the annoying stuff, so I suspect they disabled all the annoying stuff and totally forgot.
I really don't get the need to "defend" Windows, however. It's an OS being sold by a large, for-profit company, that has pros and cons like any other OS. No need to fight MS's fights for them... and given it's 75% desktop marketshare (and like ~95% for gaming), I think they are doing pretty dang well by themselves.
If you buy a signature windows 11 device (surface) - you get all the Microsoft ecosystem because that's probably why/what you're buying into...
but it certainly isn't full of ads and my "wuts" are there because i'm calling out the bs :)
In all fairness, iMessage probably counts. Not that I consider "but Apple also does bad things!" to be a defense.
That said, it's hard to compare the two given Pidgin is a general purpose communication tool without vendor lock-in (e.g. it's also an IRC client, has peer-to-peer mode, etc), and most Linux installers let you opt-out of these sorts of bundled software.
I think the real issue is some might find MS Teams to be obnoxious software (I suppose, I barely have used it)
To be fair, if you asked people if they wanted garbage they probably wouldn't say yes. You only get these acceptance of these sorts of impositions when there is no other alternative (or people aren't aware there even is an alternative).
Don't reduce this to just apps in start menu. For some reason, some of these apps are "special" and they are reinstalling just seconds after after the user uninstalled them. That is rightfully infuriating and contributes to the user perception that windows is working against them.
I do that when i get a new macbook on the dock. I do that when i Get a new iphone or ipad or a Chromebook or an android device.
I do that even when I boot up Rhel/Centos/Fedora/Rocky/Mint/Ubuntu
It's been that way for years.
If you are getting forced reboots with that much frequency, it's not because of Microsoft.
It is already ridiculous that I even have to forcefully install updates even if I don't want to, and I won't accept the "yeah but unless they do this way no one is gonna install updates".
Of course no one is... they ask for a reboot. Maybe just do something as simple as managing your updates so that the reboot is not needed? I never rebooted any of my linux boxes after an update since 2010 and never had a single problem because of it.
Rebooting once a month isn't a problem for anyone I know. My phones typically get 3+ major updates a year and a monthly update and reboots itself at night.
These can be disabled.
>installed MS teams
Not sure about this? I had to install MS Teams for an interview a few months ago and tbh it was a bit of a pita.
>sent mountains of telemetry back to base (which can't be disabled)
It can be disabled. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/perman...
The Teams shipped with Windows 11 can be used with personal accounts only; not with work or school accounts. So if a common user tries to use it for their job, they are going to be left wondering, why it doesn't work, when they have it already installed.
What are the ads in the start menu?
Maybe the standards of 2000 would. That’s pretty irrelevant. 2000 was…2000. This over the topness of calling Windows adware is another thing that one vocal part of HN and similar areas on the web are prone to do. Like acting like Facebook is some malevolent apocalyptic evil.
Why is that?
Had microsoft been able to release real smartphones with windows phone earlier, we'd be probably seeing a very different mobile world than what we see today. I quickly tried windows phone when they were released, they didn't seem worse or slower or less capable (except for fewer apps) than androids or iphones of the time.
I'll never understand what people do with Linux to have all the problems they do. I've put it on computers of tech-illiterates and they seem to have less issues than HN members...
...the ten step process to simply add an icon to the Ubuntu desktop to run a shell script are a bit of a buzz kill. Maybe it's better now, but in Windows it's been a drag and drop or a right-click since 1995.
it has always been good -- if you agree not to consider whatever weird choices ubuntu makes the 'standard linux desktop experience'
looking at https://www.xmodulo.com/create-desktop-shortcut-launcher-lin... , gnome is the only environment out of those surveyed that doesn't have the obvious right-click way of adding launchers to the desktop.
i tend to pick xfce when setting up boxes for casual users, it does a good job of maintaining an early-2000s desktop look and feel.
For some reason, every large distro installs Gnome by default and throws its users into their hostile and clean (of functionality) philosophy. It would be better if this was different.
I love Linux as a development environment. But the desktop experience has so many rough edges, it will be "The Year of Linux on the Desktop" for the next 100 years.
Did you feel similarly, when serial and parallel ports were removed from computers? Or floppy drives?
Seriously, desktop icons are a wart (and so is systray); removing them is a step forward.
And BTW, Ubuntu still allows icons on the desktop as default (unfortunately). So not sure what you did.
GNOME and Apple is form over function design.
Usually sh files you download are installers... And even then it's not the standard way of installing things (.deb/.rpm or flatpak files are).
You download, open your downloads folder, right click to make it executable, and double click it. Literally exact same workflow as Windows (because who on earth would download things to the desktop instead of downloads folder...).
But honestly, last time I downloaded an sh script that wasn't for a programming thing was years ago. Chrome, Steam, any game or consumer-type software is basically always a single click install or in the software centre.
Edit - also, there's always going to be non-standard Linux workflows. But if you just download Fedora or Ubuntu and keep things default, it's a very easy, straightforward experience.
Why: hit the Win key, type Spri and hit enter. I hope that is enough of a motivation.
Definitely motivation to avoid Windows... (and maybe Java too). The fact that that's the workflow is absurd to me.
Yes, that's a nice feature, but it's not a regular thing consumers need to do. Most Linux software is packaged much more nicely. For example, VSCode, Steam, Chrome are available as debs/rpms and when you install them, they all create their own launchers. Heck, VSCode and Steam are in Ubuntu's snap repo (that you can access from the Software store) by default. Chrome and Steam are in Fedora's 3rd party repos standard.
Needing to go through an extra step or two for a non-standard Java tool doesn't say much about Linux, especially for the average person. Last time I used Java, all the Eclipse add-ons were installable through the IDE.
What I did, is remove all rights to read/write to my Desktop folder. Everything still works, but I get the bonus of no icons appearing on it, and I cannot dump stuff on there either. My wallpaper is the only thing my desktop has and it stays beautifully uncluttered.
Until Windows 11, now you can't do that. Supposedly they're going to enable it later, I hope so.
You are probably referring to the ads that can't be turned off or the very friendly Cortana that haunts every system like a ghost that no one invited nor needed. Or may be the unguessable updates that are almost always installing when you need your system the most. Those can't be it. It has to be the WinXP control panel that's now twice messed with and hidden under a completely unrelated settings app that also happens to not completely cover anything. If none of those features pull in users like flies to honey, I know the really friendly (naggy?) windows hello/signin at the startup who sells me harder than a user car salesman would. No one can resist the charm of random system.exe spiking the CPU whenever it wants may be running a crypto miner from MS or cracking passwords for NSA.